Anyone use DOT 5 brake fluid in there elise.
Discussion
Agreed - its just that you opened your intial discussion with "
Brake fade is not caused by fluid boiling!" Piooly is already running Mintex 1144 pads with a plan to upgrade to Pagids. The brake calipers are standard. The discussion was about brake fluid - As the other variables were already known to me, I suggested that he further reduce the likelihood of developing brake fade (referring to heavy use here) by having an appropriate fluid. At no time did I mention DOT 5.1 fliud - I suggested a good quality DOT 4 fluid. For the extra £5 why not have a little more piece of mind. The elise is using single piston calipers at the rear and 2 piston front. The heat dissipation is not great. On the track he would not be the first person in an elise to get fluid fade if he had the wrong / inappropriate brake fluid.
If fluid fade is not a form of brake fade then what is it? Your initial statement that brake fade cannot be caused by fluid boiling is just plain incorrect. I am happy to post another 20 references if you are still not convinced. It is not a personal issue, but I still feel that my initial post was not inappropriate to the discussion at hand - ie brake fluid. I fully accept everything else you have said - you have made several valuable points about the warning signs from pads etc. It is just that that wasn't the discussion - brake fluid was. Nuff said.
Brake fade is not caused by fluid boiling!" Piooly is already running Mintex 1144 pads with a plan to upgrade to Pagids. The brake calipers are standard. The discussion was about brake fluid - As the other variables were already known to me, I suggested that he further reduce the likelihood of developing brake fade (referring to heavy use here) by having an appropriate fluid. At no time did I mention DOT 5.1 fliud - I suggested a good quality DOT 4 fluid. For the extra £5 why not have a little more piece of mind. The elise is using single piston calipers at the rear and 2 piston front. The heat dissipation is not great. On the track he would not be the first person in an elise to get fluid fade if he had the wrong / inappropriate brake fluid. If fluid fade is not a form of brake fade then what is it? Your initial statement that brake fade cannot be caused by fluid boiling is just plain incorrect. I am happy to post another 20 references if you are still not convinced. It is not a personal issue, but I still feel that my initial post was not inappropriate to the discussion at hand - ie brake fluid. I fully accept everything else you have said - you have made several valuable points about the warning signs from pads etc. It is just that that wasn't the discussion - brake fluid was. Nuff said.
I think you both talking about the same things and now both about the same, anough to know your stuf...
But Shang-man using other wordchoice's, then Sam the man
I guess maybe it is how you speak it out that could make the confusion:
"My brakes are fading"(brake failure) could mean air in the system or boiling brake-fluid and pedal to the floor!
not nice
but when you have fading brakes(fade), that means still pressure on the pedal but the car won't slow down the way it used to be 2
Can this be what you both are trying to say but both are a bit hanging in words?? still using the same name fading/failure(both not nice because the brakes fail doing their job)
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Tuesday 17th January 20:22
But Shang-man using other wordchoice's, then Sam the man
I guess maybe it is how you speak it out that could make the confusion:
"My brakes are fading"(brake failure) could mean air in the system or boiling brake-fluid and pedal to the floor!
not nice but when you have fading brakes(fade), that means still pressure on the pedal but the car won't slow down the way it used to be
2 Can this be what you both are trying to say but both are a bit hanging in words?? still using the same name fading/failure(both not nice because the brakes fail doing their job)
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Tuesday 17th January 20:22
shangani said:
If fluid fade is not a form of brake fade then what is it? Your initial statement that brake fade cannot be caused by fluid boiling is just plain incorrect.
Fluid boil is fluid boil. You can post all the internet references you like (we all know that everything you read on the internet is true, right?
). My personal experience, (we can get into a pi55ing competition over years of experience, number and types of performance and competition cars driven, if you like, though it would be pretty meaningless) is that fluid boil does not typically cause brakes to 'fade'.
To me, 'fade' implies a gradual reduction in pedal effort:braking effort. In other words, the efficiency of translating the effort of your muscles pressing on the brake pedal into braking force at the wheels is reduced.
1) Fluid boil does not result in a significant increase in pedal effort. For as long as there is any movement left, the pedal travels further to achieve the same level of braking effort, but except for the slight increase in pressure to overcome the greater compression of the spring in the master cylinder, the pedal effort for a given level of retardation remains basically the same.
2) Despite all the Wikipedia references you care to quote, my personal experience is that the onset of fluid boil is usually quite sudden. The brakes do not 'fade' they fail - rapidly and completely. The pedal goes to the bulkhead, and no matter how hard you press the car keeps on going..simple as that. Pad fade is really very gradual and progressive in comparison.
Call it fade if you like...I'm not going to argue about semantics, but the mechanism for the failure and most importantly the symptoms are completely different.
So are the only means of dealing with the results in a real-life situation...with pad fad (whether conventional or due to gassing on new pads), the correct reaction is to stand on the pedal with all your might. With fluid boil, you can push as hard as you like and the only thing you will achieve is bending the brake pedal...the only thing that might save you is pumping the pedal.
Different cause...different symptoms...different cure. That's why I'd rather not call them the same thing.
Obviously this is now a matter of semantics. You are entitled to your personal opinions on brake fade. I have no issue with that whatsoever. It is a question of terminology. However, the issue started when based on "your personal opinion" you stated outright that I was incorrect in my initial statement. I still fail to see on what level it was factually incorrect. You made the point in bold letters. I have backed up my initial statement with confirmatory evidence (which you are free to dispute), but you have done nothing but quote "personal experience" to back up your stance. Fine lets agree to differ and look forward to future spirited banter. I just felt you should not be quite so quick to correct people without looking at both the content and context of the statement you are correcting.
Anyway, as I said, you have made many hugely relevant and important points about the issue of brakes in general. I think a pint after the next trackday should be in order!
Anyway, as I said, you have made many hugely relevant and important points about the issue of brakes in general. I think a pint after the next trackday should be in order!
not wishing to get into the argument,
some notes:
1) if you ever boil the brake fluid, you will have zero brakes, period.
2) Boil point for brake fluid is not that straight forward, you will note that fluid has a dry and wet measurment, over time brake fluid takes up water (except DOT5 - it has other issues!), so you need to look at both, and work on the wet as being the working limit.
3) if you ever get the caplipers to the temp required for boling the fluid, the seals will be screwed.
some notes:
1) if you ever boil the brake fluid, you will have zero brakes, period.
2) Boil point for brake fluid is not that straight forward, you will note that fluid has a dry and wet measurment, over time brake fluid takes up water (except DOT5 - it has other issues!), so you need to look at both, and work on the wet as being the working limit.
3) if you ever get the caplipers to the temp required for boling the fluid, the seals will be screwed.
shangani said:
"your personal opinion"
You misquote me, Sir!
What I said was 'personal experience'.
People who read about things have opinions. I've been there, done that, and stuffed the car into the scenery as a result!
I don't have an opinion about what pedal fade and fluid boil feel like. I know. Like I said, it's a bad day when I can't manage to make my pads fade on the way home from work.
I've set up race cars as part of my living in the past, and if a driver came in and reported that he had suffered brake fade when what he meant was that the fluid had boiled, I'd have a very low opinion of him...apart from anything else, it would be a dumbass thing to do, because it would mean his mechanics taking exactly the wrong remedial action.
'Brake fade, Damon? No worries, mate, we'll just stick you some harder compound pads in!'
Still,
and >> Edited by Sam_68 on Tuesday 17th January 20:29
scuffham said:
not wishing to get into the argument,
some notes:
1) if you ever boil the brake fluid, you will have zero brakes, period.
2) Boil point for brake fluid is not that straight forward, you will note that fluid has a dry and wet measurment, over time brake fluid takes up water (except DOT5 - it has other issues!), so you need to look at both, and work on the wet as being the working limit.
3) if you ever get the caplipers to the temp required for boling the fluid, the seals will be screwed.
Damn right, on all three counts!For reference...and attempting to get things back on topic...minimum specification boiling points are as follows:
DOT 3:
205 deg. C dry
140 deg. C wet
DOT 5.1:
260 deg. C dry
180 deg. C wet
The wet figures are when the fluid - which is extremely hygroscopic - has absorbed 3% water.
In other words, your super-dooper DOT 5.1 can have a boiling point 25 degrees lower than fresh, cheapo DOT 3, if you leave it in your system for a year or two. There is argument, therefore, for buying industrial quantities of DOT 3 and pressure bleeding your system after every track day and/or every 3 months road use rather than spending a lot on high-spec brake fluid, then leaving it untouched for years at a time.
Of course, pressure bleeding with DOT 5.1 after every track day would be even better, but perhaps that sort of extravagance is better left to the Ultima boys?!
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Tuesday 17th January 20:44
DOT 3:
205 deg. C dry
140 deg. C wet
DOT 5.1:
260 deg. C dry
180 deg. C wet
The wet figures are when the fluid - which is extremely hygroscopic - has absorbed 3% water.
In other words, your super-dooper DOT 5.1 can have a boiling point 25 degrees lower than fresh, cheapo DOT 3, if you leave it in your system for a year or two. There is argument, therefore, for buying industrial quantities of DOT 3 and pressure bleeding your system after every track day and/or every 3 months road use rather than spending a lot on high-spec brake fluid, then leaving it untouched for years at a time.
Of course, pressure bleeding with DOT 5.1 after every track day would be even better, but perhaps that sort of extravagance is better left to the Ultima boys?!
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Tuesday 17th January 20:44
Sorry about the misquote Sam of course you did say experience - too many hours in front of the PC doing admin never helps. In reality I suspect that most of the folks who have "boiled" their brake fluid on a trackday hadn't changed it for years. I believe it is estimated that 3% water contamination on DOT 4 brake fluid (which is supposed to absorb water more slowly than DOT 3) will reduce the wet boil point by up to 50% - very much in the range that could be dangerous on the track. Indeed as I said every trackday company reports cars launching themselves off the track as the brakes fail altogether. I am sure most of them will have had old brake fluid. Competitive racing cars probably get the fluid changed sufficiently regularly to avoid this ever happening.
I suppose at the end of the day regarding the fluid it means:
1) Change it reasonably often - probably annually
2) Use a decent brake fluid - And I don't mean that £50 Castrol stuff.
The rest as you said has to do with combinations of pads, discs etc for the application that the car is being used for.
I suppose at the end of the day regarding the fluid it means:
1) Change it reasonably often - probably annually
2) Use a decent brake fluid - And I don't mean that £50 Castrol stuff.
The rest as you said has to do with combinations of pads, discs etc for the application that the car is being used for.
I had air brakes on a truck(renault 5ton) in Libanon in 1984 and I was driving down a long hill using hillbreak? anyway I was driving there everyday many times because of my work for the UN Unifil...but on one day driving down that hill in a convoy of three cars I had to break a bit all the way driving down at some point because of the weight of my truck and the slow driving convoy(2 jeeps) and at one point the air was gone, not anough presure in the tank to pres the pads on the steal!! I pumped but still not anough and I go faster in my mates car the jeep full with some other mates in the back, they saw me coming and my face saying aaaaaaaaaaaaahhh can't stop, but they thought René is playing and fooling around, but I did'nt so lucky I bumped into their car(on the spare wheel on the backdoor) and could slow down by that because they braked also before we all crashd into the car in front of us! and the brakes worked again on that point, little damage, only the backdoor and some hinges on that Jeep.
Then we go further to our headquarters on 7.4 and I had to go to the head of mechanics, a sergant/major that man was very angry at me shouting
you should have do your chek ups on brake fluid too! your not special thinking you can drive(I had a name there best driver around the south Lebanon) but I said their is no brake fluid that way as the normal DAF trucks we drove in Holland..then he gets more angry, and said ofcorse their is!
And remember we where already a few months their! nobody mentioned it but me I would get punnished he said..I said point me the brake fluid you think their is, he could not and asked around but nobody could! after that he make's big exuses and from that day big friends and I never had to check on the regular days but I could do it when I wanted it..he trust me blind after that and was the only one in the whole compagnie that get this permission
A bit ofline but brake related, anyway I have lots of stories from Lebanon but not that good in English but in 10 years I hope a bit better
In Lebanon their were no speedlimits but I drove a truck but with bad roads and many U turns and very bad roads and no rails aside the roads or corners in the mountains! it was a real challenge to drive...sory for my "boring" story next time Lotus again all over.
GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Tuesday 17th January 21:48
and I go faster in my mates car the jeep full with some other mates in the back, they saw me coming and my face saying aaaaaaaaaaaaahhh can't stop, but they thought René is playing and fooling around, but I did'nt so lucky I bumped into their car(on the spare wheel on the backdoor) and could slow down by that because they braked also before we all crashd into the car in front of us! and the brakes worked again on that point, little damage, only the backdoor and some hinges on that Jeep. Then we go further to our headquarters on 7.4 and I had to go to the head of mechanics, a sergant/major that man was very angry at me shouting
you should have do your chek ups on brake fluid too! your not special thinking you can drive(I had a name there best driver around the south Lebanon) but I said their is no brake fluid that way as the normal DAF trucks we drove in Holland..then he gets more angry, and said ofcorse their is! And remember we where already a few months their! nobody mentioned it but me
I would get punnished he said..I said point me the brake fluid you think their is, he could not and asked around but nobody could! after that he make's big exuses and from that day big friends and I never had to check on the regular days but I could do it when I wanted it..he trust me blind after that and was the only one in the whole compagnie that get this permission A bit ofline but brake related, anyway I have lots of stories from Lebanon but not that good in English but in 10 years I hope a bit better
In Lebanon their were no speedlimits but I drove a truck
but with bad roads and many U turns and very bad roads and no rails aside the roads or corners in the mountains! it was a real challenge to drive...sory for my "boring" story next time Lotus again all over. GTRene
>> Edited by GTRene on Tuesday 17th January 21:48
scuffham said:
I always have used Comma DOT 5.1 - costs £9.95 a L and I have done multi-hour races on it without issue.
I also don't change it that often, only when I have been doing some other work requiring a bleed.
Doesn't the dot 5 / 5.1 brake fluid resist water contamination better than all the others? Anyway, I am probably too much of a pansy to cook my brakes on the track.
Hi i have braided hoses dot 5.1 and run on cheap brake pads from my experiance if the cars not for much track use then id rather have soft pads lots of dust and change them quite regular, my father has specialized in vauxhall calibra and cavalier turbo's for years and we have tryied alot of pads and to be fair the soft ones get my bet and some of them cavs are bl*@%y quick!.
scuffham said:
I always have used Comma DOT 5.1 - costs £9.95 a L and I have done multi-hour races on it without issue.
I also don't change it that often, only when I have been doing some other work requiring a bleed.
No-one has yet stepped forward to say that they have suffered from chronic fluid boil on their Elise. I certainly haven't, though I do get mild pad fade even in road use (Sport 160 with drilled/vented discs and Greenstuff pads that are about as far as I'd want to go for road use - they're pretty feeble when flat cold). I'd expect that since Lotus designed the Elise with track use in mind from day one, they'd have made sure the brakes were competent for this purpose.
I tend to change my fluid at least a couple of times a year, but that's mainly 'cos I'm worried about the car sitting in a cold, damp garage for long periods absorbing moisture and I like the peace-of-mind.
It's probably fair to assume that Scuffham's fluid has deteriorated to some extent if used for long distance races and has not been changed on a race-by-race basis, so can we conclude that fluid boil simply isn't an issue for mildly tuned Elises used for the odd track day?
I can't think of any reason not to use DOT 5.1, since the cost difference is so trivial, but are we kidding ourselves if we think there is any real benefit?
I'll admit to playing Devil's advocate, here, 'cos like Scuffam I use Comma DOT 5.1 most of the time.
It does seem to suggest that the £50-a-litre 'race' fluid from Demon Thieves would be a waste of money, though?
Has anyone suffered fluid boil on the Elise and, if so, under what conditions and with what level of modification to the car?
Yep, DOT 5 (silicone) is not appropriate. Some of the classic boys use it, as being non-hygroscopic there is no risk of internal corrosion, but there are plenty of downsides to it...more compressible, alleged problems with compatibility of seals in some cases and incompatible with conventional fluids so you need to make sure the system has been fully flushed through with the silicone fluid.
Just don't go there, basically...completely different stuff to DOT 5.1, confusingly!
Just don't go there, basically...completely different stuff to DOT 5.1, confusingly!
Olly,
I'm sure in amongst that little lot you'll find some good advice (if you can sift through all the bravado!)
Few more tips for you (and you thought this was a simple question!)
. For fast road use and the occational track day, a quality dot 4 fluid is fine
. Bleed the system anually (at least)
. Fit braided hoses and a fast road pads (1144 or SBS great for fast road)
. Use an ezi-bleed
. To do a proper job you need to remove the front calipers and invert while bleeding (air can get trapped otherwise)
. Make sure you refit the calipers using the lotus specified thread lock
. Bleed the clutch at the same time (they share the same fluid) if you don't do this you will contaminate your nice clean fluid from day one!
. Bed new pads in by gently warming them up, then perform several high speed stops from 80 - 20 then one last stop to zero - hold pad against disk as hard as you can for 2 minutes - continue and let things return to normal temp
There, think that's it.
Have fun mate
Dunc
>> Edited by DSS123 on Wednesday 18th January 07:53
I'm sure in amongst that little lot you'll find some good advice (if you can sift through all the bravado!)
Few more tips for you (and you thought this was a simple question!)
. For fast road use and the occational track day, a quality dot 4 fluid is fine
. Bleed the system anually (at least)
. Fit braided hoses and a fast road pads (1144 or SBS great for fast road)
. Use an ezi-bleed
. To do a proper job you need to remove the front calipers and invert while bleeding (air can get trapped otherwise)
. Make sure you refit the calipers using the lotus specified thread lock
. Bleed the clutch at the same time (they share the same fluid) if you don't do this you will contaminate your nice clean fluid from day one!
. Bed new pads in by gently warming them up, then perform several high speed stops from 80 - 20 then one last stop to zero - hold pad against disk as hard as you can for 2 minutes - continue and let things return to normal temp
There, think that's it.
Have fun mate
Dunc
>> Edited by DSS123 on Wednesday 18th January 07:53
dss123 said:
A very sensible summary!
If you use the eezibleed, though, be careful to ensure you have a good seal over the m/cylinder reservoir and that you don't use too much pressure...they have a habit of leaking brake fluid all over the place if you aren't careful.
I use a vacuum bleeder (which sucks the fluid out from the nipple instead), but they cost a lot more than the eezibleed so aren't worth it unless you are going to be bleeding brakes a lot.
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