The results are in: S6 reliability
Discussion
alans said:
I am a bit disturbed due to the venom in some of the posts. We all knew the S6 was potentially fragile, that TVR just isnt big enough to do all the testing the automotive giants do. Did we not all go into this with our eyes open? How many cars have the attributes of a Tuscan S? And how much do they cost?
For those who only do 5K miles per year or less, which seems typical for Tuscan owners, approx three years between rebuilds(and apparently getting better as TVR tackle the problem). Rebuild cost, to date, seems to be approx 2K for those with a full TVR service history.
Well if someone had said to me that the head needs refurbishing every three years at a cost of less than 3K I would have been perfectly happy as the characteristics of the S version of the S6 are fantastic; Torque, power and, believe it or not, economy when cruising.
OK, those whose engines have failed at very low mileages might be p1ssed off, but generally it costs them nothing to get it fixed. So just how bad is the situation? TVRs are enthusiasts cars arnt they?
Latest I have heard is 6K for a rebuild + 12 weeks off the road.
Not so sure. TVR Power seem to be able to do it for less (factory a different story). All we need is for some independants to get in on the act as well.
BTW, when mine went pop (approx April this year) TVR Power turned it round in three weeks.
s2art said:
Latest I have heard is 6K for a rebuild + 12 weeks off the road.
Not so sure. TVR Power seem to be able to do it for less (factory a different story). All we need is for some independants to get in on the act as well.
BTW, when mine went pop (approx April this year) TVR Power turned it round in three weeks.[/quote]
Yours was 5 months ago, I'm talking about a couple of weeks ago. A lot has changed in that time. Don't get me wrong I went in with my eyes open, and in the general consenses my 01 & 12K without a rebuild is going to go pop any minute now. 2K for a rebuild I can live with but 6K is taking the p*ss.
s2art said:
...
Take the cost of a Tuscan S.
Now, take the cost of a Porsche 911. Remove from that the cost of development & fitting of: ABS, airbags, traction control, whizzy electrics, crash testing, marketing, etc. Add a couple of £k for a proven turbocharger. And remove a bit more to bring TVRs/Porches profit margin into line.
I think you'll find the costs aren't much different. And we're not just talking about an engine that can do an average year's motoring without being off the road for weeks/months at a cost of thousands. We're also talking about a car that doesn't leak, doesn't rattle, doesn't need servicing every 6,000 miles, etc. And "character" doesn't come into this - "character" doesn't cost money in the same order of magnitude as anything else in it.
Peter Wheeler himself said, on TVR's own website to this day, "The Tuscan had to be an everyday car". Well, my Tuscan was supposedly my everyday car. And out of my first 90 of those days, it spent over half of them in bits. This was the second rebuild, the first being in 2002.
As for "enthusiasts", they should expect no worse than the reliability they've had in the past... QC/QA/general quality should only ever get better over time, not plummet. Moving from a reliable Chim/Griff which suffers trim/ancillary issues that cost pounds/hundreds to fix and can be lived with to something that you can largely expect £ks of bills for dealing with fundamental engineering issues and that means being without a car for weeks/months is not the same thing. Sorry, but in my mind to claim anything else is being an apologist for what was a bad situation that has been dealt with in an unacceptable way.
Even more, why should anybody expect a TVR to be unreliable? Are they advertised as that? Will half the dealers tell you that? I'm guessing not. Sure, there's lots of pub talk and jibes. There still are about Skodas, but I'd put money on them being more reliable than a Ford now. If a product's got an inherent issue, you can't expect the public to foot the bill. A company should simply know better than to release an untested product, unless they're willing to bear the costs of any issues themselves.
"Generally it costs them nothing to fix"... if that were the case, I'd not have started these polls and this thread. Generally, I'd argue, it costs thousands; even the "goodwill" rebuild was £2k. If you're having the car serviced by an Indy, or didn't complain about the initial cost, I imagine you'd have ended up paying much more.
And it's not like you know you can book it in once a year for a quick rebuild and all's good. In the past, at least, it could go wrong at any point. And could be off the road for an indefinite period. Not acceptable for something that costs at least 5 times the price of an average car.
>> Edited by J_S_G on Thursday 9th September 17:57
Apache said:
As for the point some have made about the driver's mechanical sympathy, I don't think this is valid, as enough failures have occured to cars that are treated well to rule this out.
Agreed, that is a complete bag of wank, if ever there was a car that would be treated correctly it's a TVR, every fecker and his dog will mention reliability so no one buys these things without some anticipation of being mechanically sympathetic.
Don't kid yourself, ive seen S6 cars thrashed within an inch of its life within 30 sec of starting from cold
I have a Griff at the moment. I am not thinking of changing yet, but one day might. I would've liked a Tuscan but there is no way I would buy one with the reliability issues today.
40% is ridiculous and definately not acceptable and I think people should stop buying them until something is done, I certainly wouldn't buy one. If things change in the coming years, and I hope they do, I will be getting one.
Perhaps TVR and Microsoft are in league as Microsoft are always releasing products before they are ready.
I know stupid comparison... I'll get me coat.
Grouch.
>> Edited by groucho on Thursday 9th September 20:46
40% is ridiculous and definately not acceptable and I think people should stop buying them until something is done, I certainly wouldn't buy one. If things change in the coming years, and I hope they do, I will be getting one.
Perhaps TVR and Microsoft are in league as Microsoft are always releasing products before they are ready.
I know stupid comparison... I'll get me coat.
Grouch.
>> Edited by groucho on Thursday 9th September 20:46
I did not realise that the figures were so bad, I also assumed that once rebuilt then the problems were fixed. It would appear that this is not the case, so unless there are fundimental differences between the new speed 6 engines and the ones being rebuilt that are a few years old, how can TVR say that the problem is fixed?
I have placed a deposit on a mark 2 Tuscan convertable, but with this information and the change of ownership, I think I will stick with my Chimaera for a whlie yet, to see it the new S6 engines last any longer and if TVR get their act together.
>> Edited by leerdam23 on Thursday 9th September 19:48
I have placed a deposit on a mark 2 Tuscan convertable, but with this information and the change of ownership, I think I will stick with my Chimaera for a whlie yet, to see it the new S6 engines last any longer and if TVR get their act together.
>> Edited by leerdam23 on Thursday 9th September 19:48
leerdam23 said:
I did not realise that the figures were so bad, I also assumed that once rebuilt then the problems were fixed. It would appear that this is not the case, so unless there are fundimental differences between the new speed 6 engines and the ones being rebuilt that are a few years old, how can TVR say that the problem is fixed?
The finger followers are no longer the same. Neither are the valve guides... the two main culprits of rebuilds. Don't know about the head gasket (heard conflicting stories on this). Personally, I believe the issues are largely/entirely fixed now. I would be quite happy to have a brand new S6 engine now. The worry is with the earlier ones that may/may not still go bang. Wouldn't touch a pre mid-2002 or so one that hadn't had the followers & valve guides done, unless it was priced £X,000 below a "sorted" one.
>> Edited by J_S_G on Thursday 9th September 20:00
J_S_G said:
The finger followers are no longer the same. Neither are the valve guides... the two main culprits of rebuilds. Don't know about the head gasket. Personally, I believe the issues are largely/entirely fixed now. I would be quite happy to have a brand new S6 engine now. The worry is with the earlier ones that may/may not still go bang.
That's it then let's go and get one. Anybody got 50k they can lend me?
leerdam23 said:
if that is the case, then why are multiple rebuilds needed? Like I said, I will wati and see...
Well, I'm on my second rebuild 'cos when the first one was done, there was no "uprated valve guide" as far as I'm aware. And I'm sure that numerous finger-follower rebuilds resulted in more dodgy ones being fitted until they figured it all out/got new ones that were correct, etc.
groucho said:
That's it then let's go and get one. Anybody got 50k they can lend me?
Wouldn't advocate anybody buy/dismiss one on my opinion! And I'm pretty sure I won't have another (in the foreseeable future) in protest of the fact I had to pay towards my rebuild. I do have some faith in the engine now, though.
>> Edited by J_S_G on Thursday 9th September 20:53
did you get a response from Flasher in this survey?
his 2002 tamora burnt a hole in a piston and his t350 went bang to be repaired when almost new
my t350 was faultless during my ownership, but i believe it blew up a couple of months later at Snetterton putting a holw the size of a fist through the engine block...
bennno
bennno said:
did you get a response from Flasher in this survey?
his 2002 tamora burnt a hole in a piston and his t350 went bang to be repaired when almost new
my t350 was faultless during my ownership, but i believe it blew up a couple of months later at Snetterton putting a holw the size of a fist through the engine block...
Geeze.
And that's why noone should buy one based on my opinion alone... 
Great work James! Just ignore all the twats that try to poke holes in it. Real data is what this debate has been crying out for, now we have it. Someone mentioned about sample sizes not being big enough earlier on. What pish! That sample size is more than big enough and of course is completely representative, why wouldnt it be?
Regardless of folks getting anal about a few percent here and there and the old mecahnical sympathy bull shit the data speaks for itself. THose percentage numbers are criminal!
I can see that data set being the catalyst in allowing owners to take legal action, involve the likes of watchdog etc etc. As soon as my engine goes that's exactly what I'll be doing. They'd have a field day with TVR! I recall a few other cars that watchdog slated. Their problems were piffling to TVR's yet they got reeemed!
The suggestion in a previous post about TVR owners clubbing togeher is also a goodun! BEsides, if the problems we're all fixed for free the price and demand for S6 engined cars would rocket to somewhere near 4.5 prices. Looking currently at the market thats a 5K increase. WOW!
Great job!
Regardless of folks getting anal about a few percent here and there and the old mecahnical sympathy bull shit the data speaks for itself. THose percentage numbers are criminal!
I can see that data set being the catalyst in allowing owners to take legal action, involve the likes of watchdog etc etc. As soon as my engine goes that's exactly what I'll be doing. They'd have a field day with TVR! I recall a few other cars that watchdog slated. Their problems were piffling to TVR's yet they got reeemed!
The suggestion in a previous post about TVR owners clubbing togeher is also a goodun! BEsides, if the problems we're all fixed for free the price and demand for S6 engined cars would rocket to somewhere near 4.5 prices. Looking currently at the market thats a 5K increase. WOW!
Great job!
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