Racing Green demonstrator driven
Discussion
JonRB said:
Having had an engine failure due to detonation on #6 cylinder, and another due to a valve seat falling out (yes, really), I would say that there are some inherent flaws in the standard head. More than just an "old chestnut" in my opinion.
Detonation is not influenced by the valve gear design so the FFF isn't going to alter this risk at all. A better ECU with knock sensing can (e.g syvecs), but not the FFF head alone.A valve seat falling out also is nothing to do with the head design either, and is a very rare problem. The FFF has valve seats just the same so is just as likely to suffer from this fault which would be down to a faulty part and/or a shoddy build.
So as for the "inherent flaws" you reference, I still stand by my "that old chestnut" comment.
dvs_dave said:
Detonation is not influenced by the valve gear design so the FFF isn't going to alter this risk at all. A better ECU with knock sensing can (e.g syvecs), but not the FFF head alone.
A valve seat falling out also is nothing to do with the head design either, and is a very rare problem. The FFF has valve seats just the same so is just as likely to suffer from this fault which would be down to a faulty part and/or a shoddy build.
So as for the "inherent flaws" you reference, I still stand by my "that old chestnut" comment.
You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, do you? I love the internet - everyone thinks they're an expert. A valve seat falling out also is nothing to do with the head design either, and is a very rare problem. The FFF has valve seats just the same so is just as likely to suffer from this fault which would be down to a faulty part and/or a shoddy build.
So as for the "inherent flaws" you reference, I still stand by my "that old chestnut" comment.
T40ORA said:
-Jamie- said:
mushrooms? lol. I've got LS power now lee !
Goes well, does it? 
Seriously tempted to go towards an LS9 route for the Tuscan as well now, to be honest...
Hi Pascal, It would be a shame if you had to abandon your Racing Green build but I sure can understand your frustration, another summer has gone with virtually no progress on your car and huge amouts of money spent. Is it worth giving them until the new year to try and get your car back to you in the build you originally required as you probably wouldn't get much use of it in the next few months anyway. If that doesn't happen then I'm sure you could get an LS engine put in over the next few months. I just hope Racing Green are not hoping that no one will use there car in the winter months to allow for other delays. I couldn't wait as long as some of you guys have so I went elsewhere for my build and I get my car back next week.
I hate reading threads like this where owners have spent lots of cash and had very little use of their vehicle.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do, It would be great to see your Tuscan being used.
George
I hate reading threads like this where owners have spent lots of cash and had very little use of their vehicle.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do, It would be great to see your Tuscan being used.
George
dvs_dave said:
Dear oh dear, the irony..... The standard head gives insufficient cooling to #6 cylinder. This is a well understood and acknowledged design flaw, which even Al Melling himself acknowledged (if only because he harped on about how TVR changed his design and made it inferior). The FFF head specifically addresses this with additional coolant pathways and also additional oil pathways.
Yes, the Syvecs does specifically guard against detonation with its knock sensors which is why Racing Green recommend fitting it at the same time as the FFF head. I'll grant you that the head doesn't specifically affect detonation, but it's always #6 that seems to lean out. The standard head seems to have too much variation on compression due to tolerances and it always seems to be #6 that is affected. The FFF head is machined to much higher tolerances by an ex-Ilmor engine guy so the head does contribute there as it has been specifically designed to do so.
Still, I'm happy for you that you have the utmost faith in the perfection of the standard head and wish you all the best in the future. Even if I do think you're completely deluded.
Edited by JonRB on Friday 4th November 18:23
natben said:
Hi Pascal, It would be a shame if you had to abandon your Racing Green build but I sure can understand your frustration, another summer has gone with virtually no progress on your car and huge amouts of money spent. Is it worth giving them until the new year to try and get your car back to you in the build you originally required as you probably wouldn't get much use of it in the next few months anyway. If that doesn't happen then I'm sure you could get an LS engine put in over the next few months. I just hope Racing Green are not hoping that no one will use there car in the winter months to allow for other delays. I couldn't wait as long as some of you guys have so I went elsewhere for my build and I get my car back next week.
I hate reading threads like this where owners have spent lots of cash and had very little use of their vehicle.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do, It would be great to see your Tuscan being used.
Hi George,could you let us know how it all pans out with your Power rebuild bud- especially me coz as I've said in the past,I think mine will need doing next spring.
Cheers.
George
I hate reading threads like this where owners have spent lots of cash and had very little use of their vehicle.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do, It would be great to see your Tuscan being used.
Hi George,could you let us know how it all pans out with your Power rebuild bud- especially me coz as I've said in the past,I think mine will need doing next spring.
Cheers.
George
JonRB said:
.......lots of stuff that doesn't apply to a properly rebuilt standard Speed Six......
Still, I'm happy for you that you have the utmost faith in the perfection of the standard head and wish you all the best in the future. Even if I do think you're completely deluded.
Yes you're right. I'll get my coat and actually drive away in my inherently flawed TVR whilst eating into the remaining 75k miles of its warranty.Still, I'm happy for you that you have the utmost faith in the perfection of the standard head and wish you all the best in the future. Even if I do think you're completely deluded.
Deluded you say?
JonRB said:
Really? You're assuming that Racing Green use standard valve seats and they don't. Racing Green use steel ones that are cooled in liquid Nitrogen before they are tapped into place so they can't fall out. The standard TVR ones are much softer (I heard they're a copper alloy?) and machined to much lower tolerances and they have been known to fall out or recess. But of course you knew that as you're such an expert.
You wouldn't want to use liquid nitrogen to fit a valve into a valve guide as you would get an interference fit (assuming they wouldn't fit with liquid nitrogen). The valves on a S6 have always been steel and you wouldn't use anything else (except maybe something expensive from aerospace). The valve guides on early engines were steel then they changed to phosphor bronze. The phosphor bronze alloy ones did wear though this isn't necessarily due to the hardness of the material, phosphor bronze is often an excellent bearing material with a good low coefficient of friction.
The post 2005 valve guides and valves reverted to steel on steel however a good engine builder will measure the valves individually and ream the guides to fit. But of course you knew that as you're such an expert. :rolleyes
Ex Racing Green engine owner....
Talksteer said:
You wouldn't want to use liquid nitrogen to fit a valve into a valve guide as you would get an interference fit (assuming they wouldn't fit with liquid nitrogen). The valves on a S6 have always been steel and you wouldn't use anything else (except maybe something expensive from aerospace).
The valve guides on early engines were steel then they changed to phosphor bronze. The phosphor bronze alloy ones did wear though this isn't necessarily due to the hardness of the material, phosphor bronze is often an excellent bearing material with a good low coefficient of friction.
The post 2005 valve guides and valves reverted to steel on steel however a good engine builder will measure the valves individually and ream the guides to fit.
Ok, fair enough. I guess I stand corrected on that. Anyway, in the case of my engine the valve seat simply fell out which I have been led to believe was down to poor materials and poor tolerances, which sounds plausible to me. Perhaps I should have simply said that rather than sticking my neck out further. The valve guides on early engines were steel then they changed to phosphor bronze. The phosphor bronze alloy ones did wear though this isn't necessarily due to the hardness of the material, phosphor bronze is often an excellent bearing material with a good low coefficient of friction.
The post 2005 valve guides and valves reverted to steel on steel however a good engine builder will measure the valves individually and ream the guides to fit.
Talksteer said:
But of course you knew that as you're such an expert.
I guess I deserved that. 
natben said:
Hi Pascal, It would be a shame if you had to abandon your Racing Green build but I sure can understand your frustration, another summer has gone with virtually no progress on your car and huge amouts of money spent. Is it worth giving them until the new year to try and get your car back to you in the build you originally required as you probably wouldn't get much use of it in the next few months anyway. If that doesn't happen then I'm sure you could get an LS engine put in over the next few months. I just hope Racing Green are not hoping that no one will use there car in the winter months to allow for other delays. I couldn't wait as long as some of you guys have so I went elsewhere for my build and I get my car back next week.
I hate reading threads like this where owners have spent lots of cash and had very little use of their vehicle.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do, It would be great to see your Tuscan being used.
George
Hey George,I hate reading threads like this where owners have spent lots of cash and had very little use of their vehicle.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do, It would be great to see your Tuscan being used.
George
Last time I spoke with RG, they said it would take a good 7-8 weeks (that's about 1,5 week ago now). So basically, yes, I'm giving them to the end of this year, if by then the car isn't fully up and running: refund and LS9 conversion, as I now know that the LS engine does fit.
Either that, or I sell the Tuscan as a whole and go all "American Muscle", and buy an LS9 with the car that it was designed for around it...
PascalBuyens said:
LS goes like stink my man... (Just hope that I can officially rip the stones out of the tarmac in the Camaro SOON)
Seriously tempted to go towards an LS9 route for the Tuscan as well now, to be honest...
Ive only got the LS2 (400bhp and 400lbft) fitted to a s14 200sx, it was corner weighted not so long ago, weight distribution remains at 53/47 which is the same as a standard car. Seriously tempted to go towards an LS9 route for the Tuscan as well now, to be honest...
The LS9 engine looks amazing, forged titanium rods and all sorts of goodies as standard and still a 50,000mile warranty out of the crate!
Im gutted for you, really hoped to see your car finished this year!
PascalBuyens said:
Either that, or I sell the Tuscan as a whole and go all "American Muscle", and buy an LS9 with the car that it was designed for around it...
Given the time and money you've put into that Tuscan, it might be worth considering how much it is worth when finished as "the ultimate S6-engined Tuscan" and then consider buying another Tuscan to do the LS9 conversion on. Your legendary Tuscan may be worth a premium to someone.Also, you could then consider whether you want to stay with a Tuscan or consider a Sagaris. We know that the LS* engines fit in a Sag because blackiepaul has fitted the LS7 to his.
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