Racing Green demonstrator driven
Discussion
-Jamie- said:
he has to keep the famous swordfish tuscan !
I hope RG can pull their finger out and finally sort this for you pascal!
What staggers me is that on the face of it, one of RG's most valued customers is now unhappy at the level of service he is getting from them having given them what must literally be ten's of thousands of pounds and yet RG seem to merrily roll along without addressing his issues and at the same time take orders from other customers for their products. Are they not aware of the negative press this is causing ? I appreciate there are two sides to every story but when their flagship customer starts making negative remarks having defended them on here on numerous occasions in the past, the bells start ringing for me - the phrase not touching with a barge poll comes to mind.I hope RG can pull their finger out and finally sort this for you pascal!
s5tvr said:
What staggers me is that on the face of it, one of RG's most valued customers is now unhappy at the level of service he is getting from them having given them what must literally be ten's of thousands of pounds and yet RG seem to merrily roll along without addressing his issues and at the same time take orders from other customers for their products. Are they not aware of the negative press this is causing ? I appreciate there are two sides to every story but when their flagship customer starts making negative remarks having defended them on here on numerous occasions in the past, the bells start ringing for me - the phrase not touching with a barge poll comes to mind.
I'm a 'flagship' customer and I am over the moon with the work they have done for me. The engineering is exquisite. There are other companies who will happily claim in public that they can do this stuff in a few minutes and get it spot on but they're just talking the same old crap as always.
It's a very big project with criterias changing quite a bit from the original plan. I'm not remotely surprised that it's taking a long time. Especially since getting up and running it has been waiting for new parts which until recently didn't exist etc.
JonRB said:
Given the time and money you've put into that Tuscan, it might be worth considering how much it is worth when finished as "the ultimate S6-engined Tuscan" and then consider buying another Tuscan to do the LS9 conversion on. Your legendary Tuscan may be worth a premium to someone.
Also, you could then consider whether you want to stay with a Tuscan or consider a Sagaris. We know that the LS* engines fit in a Sag because blackiepaul has fitted the LS7 to his.
Just FYI the LS7 fits in a Tuscan too!...I think the LS9 may present some challenges but everything is possible!Also, you could then consider whether you want to stay with a Tuscan or consider a Sagaris. We know that the LS* engines fit in a Sag because blackiepaul has fitted the LS7 to his.
Personally, I think it would be a great shame if the S/C project didn't complete - hang in there Pascal.
Edited by spartridge on Saturday 5th November 15:30
I suggest you look at the designs of the original engine, and as for steel valve seats thats nothing new also the bronze seats that were fitted offer better cooling of the valves.
JonRB said:
Really? You're assuming that Racing Green use standard valve seats and they don't. Racing Green use steel ones that are cooled in liquid Nitrogen before they are tapped into place so they can't fall out. The standard TVR ones are much softer (I heard they're a copper alloy?) and machined to much lower tolerances and they have been known to fall out or recess. But of course you knew that as you're such an expert. 
The standard head gives insufficient cooling to #6 cylinder. This is a well understood and acknowledged design flaw, which even Al Melling himself acknowledged (if only because he harped on about how TVR changed his design and made it inferior). The FFF head specifically addresses this with additional coolant pathways and also additional oil pathways.
Yes, the Syvecs does specifically guard against detonation with its knock sensors which is why Racing Green recommend fitting it at the same time as the FFF head. I'll grant you that the head doesn't specifically affect detonation, but it's always #6 that seems to lean out. The standard head seems to have too much variation on compression due to tolerances and it always seems to be #6 that is affected. The FFF head is machined to much higher tolerances by an ex-Ilmor engine guy so the head does contribute there as it has been specifically designed to do so.
Still, I'm happy for you that you have the utmost faith in the perfection of the standard head and wish you all the best in the future. Even if I do think you're completely deluded.
The standard head gives insufficient cooling to #6 cylinder. This is a well understood and acknowledged design flaw, which even Al Melling himself acknowledged (if only because he harped on about how TVR changed his design and made it inferior). The FFF head specifically addresses this with additional coolant pathways and also additional oil pathways.
Yes, the Syvecs does specifically guard against detonation with its knock sensors which is why Racing Green recommend fitting it at the same time as the FFF head. I'll grant you that the head doesn't specifically affect detonation, but it's always #6 that seems to lean out. The standard head seems to have too much variation on compression due to tolerances and it always seems to be #6 that is affected. The FFF head is machined to much higher tolerances by an ex-Ilmor engine guy so the head does contribute there as it has been specifically designed to do so.
Still, I'm happy for you that you have the utmost faith in the perfection of the standard head and wish you all the best in the future. Even if I do think you're completely deluded.
Edited by JonRB on Friday 4th November 18:23
s5tvr said:
What staggers me is that on the face of it, one of RG's most valued customers is now unhappy at the level of service he is getting from them having given them what must literally be ten's of thousands of pounds and yet RG seem to merrily roll along without addressing his issues and at the same time take orders from other customers for their products. Are they not aware of the negative press this is causing ? I appreciate there are two sides to every story but when their flagship customer starts making negative remarks having defended them on here on numerous occasions in the past, the bells start ringing for me - the phrase not touching with a barge poll comes to mind.
No no, trust me, the level of quality they deliver, I fully appreciate. And I've always told RG that I'd rather have it done properly than in a hurry. Yes, there are some frustrations from my side, because it's taking longer than I expected, but on the other hand, like DonkeyApple said, the original project has had a few changes over the past years. Remember, I started with a NA engine, which I decided myself on, upon seeing the supercharger at RG, that they should develop the kit on my car. Last year the car was up and running, and even though it had less hp than I had set out, it pulled like a train, to such an extent that 3rd gear couldn't cope with the torque. When I returned the car, RG offered theirselves to upgrade the head to the latest spec. Unfortunately for them, and this is something they can't do anything about, their supplier found himself almost being killed in a fire in his premises, and it has taken more time than expected to get up and running again.
If me saying I'm tempted to put an LS9 in sounds like a dig at RG, it isn't, I'd still defend their product, as I've seen the quality of work that they deliver, and it is quite some extensive attention to detail that has gone into it. I honestly don't doubt the craftmanship of the supplier, who happens to be an ex-F1 engineer, but I'm more annoyed by the fact insurance issues and things like that indirectly cause the huge delays.
PascalBuyens said:
No no, trust me, the level of quality they deliver, I fully appreciate. And I've always told RG that I'd rather have it done properly than in a hurry. Yes, there are some frustrations from my side, because it's taking longer than I expected, but on the other hand, like DonkeyApple said, the original project has had a few changes over the past years. Remember, I started with a NA engine, which I decided myself on, upon seeing the supercharger at RG, that they should develop the kit on my car.
Last year the car was up and running, and even though it had less hp than I had set out, it pulled like a train, to such an extent that 3rd gear couldn't cope with the torque. When I returned the car, RG offered theirselves to upgrade the head to the latest spec. Unfortunately for them, and this is something they can't do anything about, their supplier found himself almost being killed in a fire in his premises, and it has taken more time than expected to get up and running again.
If me saying I'm tempted to put an LS9 in sounds like a dig at RG, it isn't, I'd still defend their product, as I've seen the quality of work that they deliver, and it is quite some extensive attention to detail that has gone into it. I honestly don't doubt the craftmanship of the supplier of the FFF heads, who happens to be an ex-F1 engineer, but I'm more annoyed by the fact insurance issues and things like that indirectly cause the huge delays.
Last year the car was up and running, and even though it had less hp than I had set out, it pulled like a train, to such an extent that 3rd gear couldn't cope with the torque. When I returned the car, RG offered theirselves to upgrade the head to the latest spec. Unfortunately for them, and this is something they can't do anything about, their supplier found himself almost being killed in a fire in his premises, and it has taken more time than expected to get up and running again.
If me saying I'm tempted to put an LS9 in sounds like a dig at RG, it isn't, I'd still defend their product, as I've seen the quality of work that they deliver, and it is quite some extensive attention to detail that has gone into it. I honestly don't doubt the craftmanship of the supplier of the FFF heads, who happens to be an ex-F1 engineer, but I'm more annoyed by the fact insurance issues and things like that indirectly cause the huge delays.
And steering this thread back on to something positive.... I popped in unannounced yesterday at RG to have a look at my Sag being rebuilt. Wow. Simply stunning. In fact so stunning I forgot to take pictures.... 
I also have to say that they have really made me feel looked after during this process. They have remembered comments in passing, and have reached out to other companies to ensure I have the car I want (and what they think can be achieved).
Obviously the test will be what it produces, and the bill.... But damn, it's a good looking thing.
I also have to say that they have really made me feel looked after during this process. They have remembered comments in passing, and have reached out to other companies to ensure I have the car I want (and what they think can be achieved).
Obviously the test will be what it produces, and the bill.... But damn, it's a good looking thing.
JonRB said:
dpd3047 said:
Can someone tell me exactly what RG have come up with that is new inavative.
I think it's been adequately discussed. Just read back over the thread. Why? Because they can I suppose? Although it's worth noting that it doesn't appear to offer any meaningful benefits (other than it's a bit mechanically quieter) without the aid of a more advanced ECU which is telling.
Happy to be proven wrong mind.
dvs_dave said:
Nothing new technology wise, just the application of different equally proven technologies.
Why? Because they can I suppose? Although it's worth noting that it doesn't appear to offer any meaningful benefits (other than it's a bit mechanically quieter) without the aid of a more advanced ECU which is telling.
Happy to be proven wrong mind.
Well, I'm no expert (I think we've established that now Why? Because they can I suppose? Although it's worth noting that it doesn't appear to offer any meaningful benefits (other than it's a bit mechanically quieter) without the aid of a more advanced ECU which is telling.
Happy to be proven wrong mind.
) but my understanding is that, apart from ditching the much-maligned Finger-Followers in favour of Jaguar-style buckets, the FFF head adds extra oil and coolant pathways to address the issues with #6 cylinder. So it's more evolution than revolution - an attempt to address the known issues of the standard head and improve it as much as possible. Ok, so some people are of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the Finger-Followers and I'm not proposing to get into a debate about that. I've been told that the head doesn't *require* the more advanced ECU and will happily run with the standard ECU, although it's strongly recommended as it makes it a more complete package.
Don1 said:
In addition to this is the Variable Cam Timing.... (also, please note the hydraulic tappets, so you don't need to check/change clearance. I think we worked it out that the work saved in service costs will pay for the conversion in about 20 years?
Well, the VVT is still in development so not actually an attribute of the head at present. 
JonRB said:
dvs_dave said:
Nothing new technology wise, just the application of different equally proven technologies.
Why? Because they can I suppose? Although it's worth noting that it doesn't appear to offer any meaningful benefits (other than it's a bit mechanically quieter) without the aid of a more advanced ECU which is telling.
Happy to be proven wrong mind.
Well, I'm no expert (I think we've established that now Why? Because they can I suppose? Although it's worth noting that it doesn't appear to offer any meaningful benefits (other than it's a bit mechanically quieter) without the aid of a more advanced ECU which is telling.
Happy to be proven wrong mind.
) but my understanding is that, apart from ditching the much-maligned Finger-Followers in favour of Jaguar-style buckets, the FFF head adds extra oil and coolant pathways to address the issues with #6 cylinder. So it's more evolution than revolution - an attempt to address the known issues of the standard head and improve it as much as possible. Ok, so some people are of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the Finger-Followers and I'm not proposing to get into a debate about that. I've been told that the head doesn't *require* the more advanced ECU and will happily run with the standard ECU, although it's strongly recommended as it makes it a more complete package.
JonRB said:
How so? He says that it offers no real benefit and I say it does. I don't see how that is agreeing with him by any stretch of the imagination.
Dave and Dave asked you what was new and innovative/new technology apart from the optional Syv package. You were not able to post anything that fitted this criteria so I assume that you must agree with them.Gassing Station | Speed Six Engine | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff