Racing Green demonstrator driven
Discussion
Ryan Griffiths said:
Mattt said:
So the Cal switch just adjusts the ignition map? The fuelling stays identical with all settings?
It has 8 Postions which you can set to have literally what ever you want.So say for using race fuel which is oxygenated you can adust the ignition, fuel, cam angle, closed loop lambda targets, traction levels, have any functions which the ecu can control adjusted.
Ryan
I'm probably missing something very obvious here, but what I don't understand is why different closed loop targets should apply in the case of oxygenated fuels?
As an aside, it's probably worth pointing out that it's not just race fuels which are oxygenated. Much of the forecourt fuel is too.
Getsis said:
Looks like there could be a few ponies more to come out. Syvecs could be being over protective of the engine, it is retarding the ignition due to knock, hopefully this will be sorted shortly.
Kev
Cats are all good so im up for a real discussion now we have proved anti knock sensors lose big hp on FINGER FOLLOWER engines but gain bigger numbers on the FFF ENGINE, maybe I was right on my early days statement that anti knock system wont work on a notoriously noisy engine, I find it very hard to except 1 2 3 cylinders are detonating and they have to be retarded 6 degrees, maybe engine noise? Over to you Ryan
Dom
Edited by Tvr Power on Tuesday 13th December 20:51
Tvr Power said:
Cats are all good so im up for a real discussion now we have proved anti knock sensors loose big hp on FINGER FOLLOWER engines but gain bigger numbers on the FFF ENGINE, maybe I was Wright on my early days statement that anti knock system wont work on a notorious noisy engine, I find it very hard to except 1 2 3 cylinders are detonating and they have to be retarded 6 degrees, maybe engine noise? Over to you Ryan
So, let me just decipher that for a moment. You're conceding that the FFF head has some advantages because, by removing some of the thrashing "demented sewing machine" noise of the Finger-Followers, it allows knock sensing to be more effective? Not sure which of your many axes you're grinding here, Dom - I kind of lose track of them sometimes.
(And, incidentally, it's "lose", "right", "notoriously" and "accept")
Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 13th December 20:48
JonRB said:
So, let me just decipher that for a moment. You're conceding that the FFF head has some advantages because, by removing some of the thrashing "demented sewing machine" noise of the Finger-Followers, it allows knock sensing to be more effective?
Not sure which of your many axes you're grinding here, Dom - I kind of lose track of them sometimes.
(And, incidentally, it's "lose", "right", "notoriously" and "accept")
opp its been a long day Mr, and for your question its pretty straight forward why would i have axes to grind Mr Bombastic Not sure which of your many axes you're grinding here, Dom - I kind of lose track of them sometimes.
(And, incidentally, it's "lose", "right", "notoriously" and "accept")
Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 13th December 20:48
Dom
Tvr Power said:
Getsis said:
Looks like there could be a few ponies more to come out. Syvecs could be being over protective of the engine, it is retarding the ignition due to knock, hopefully this will be sorted shortly.
Kev
Cats are all good so im up for a real discussion now we have proved anti knock sensors lose big hp on FINGER FOLLOWER engines but gain bigger numbers on the FFF ENGINE, maybe I was right on my early days statement that anti knock system wont work on a notoriously noisy engine, I find it very hard to except 1 2 3 cylinders are detonating and they have to be retarded 6 degrees, maybe engine noise? Over to you Ryan
Dom
Edited by Tvr Power on Tuesday 13th December 20:51
JonRB said:
Tvr Power said:
Cats are all good so I'm up for a real discussion now we have proved anti knock sensors allegedly lose a lot of hp on FINGER FOLLOWER engines but allegedly gain a lot of hp on FFF ENGINES; maybe I was correct in my early statement that an anti knock system won't work on a notoriously noisy engine. I find it very hard to accept that cylinders 1,2 and 3 are detonating and that they have to be retarded 6 degrees whilst 4,5 and 6 are not. This maybe due to engine noise. Over to you Ryan.
So, let me just decipher that for a moment. You're conceding that the FFF head has some advantages because, by removing some of the thrashing "demented sewing machine" noise of the Finger-Followers, it allows knock sensing to be more effective? Dom does have a good point in why should only half the engine have to be retarded when the other half is no different.
Guys I really find it stunningly pathetic queuing up to have a go at Dom all the bloody time, he is without doubt the most knowledgeable person out there, I don't give a s
t about spelling, past statements and the like! We are all lucky that he comes on here at all ! Not for much longer if every time he posts he gets verbal and digs.
We all love our cars and need all the helps we can with them, lets just stop the play ground stuff fella's.
t about spelling, past statements and the like! We are all lucky that he comes on here at all ! Not for much longer if every time he posts he gets verbal and digs.We all love our cars and need all the helps we can with them, lets just stop the play ground stuff fella's.
D14 AYS said:
Guys I really find it stunningly pathetic queuing up to have a go at Dom all the bloody time, he is without doubt the most knowledgeable person out there, I don't give a st about spelling, past statements and the like! We are all lucky that he comes on here at all ! Not for much longer if every time he posts he gets verbal and digs.
We all love our cars and need all the helps we can with them, lets just stop the play ground stuff fella's.
Hear, hear! Moreover, I couldn't help notice that the petty spelling mistakes don't even appear in Dom's original post. Perhaps they were added for effect in the reply? If so, that really is just pathetic.t about spelling, past statements and the like! We are all lucky that he comes on here at all ! Not for much longer if every time he posts he gets verbal and digs.We all love our cars and need all the helps we can with them, lets just stop the play ground stuff fella's.
Anyhow, I am interested in what the issue is with this particular engine setup. Waiting patiently for now...
D14 AYS said:
Guys I really find it stunningly pathetic queuing up to have a go at Dom all the bloody time, he is without doubt the most knowledgeable person out there, I don't give a st about spelling, past statements and the like! We are all lucky that he comes on here at all ! Not for much longer if every time he posts he gets verbal and digs.
We all love our cars and need all the helps we can with them, lets just stop the play ground stuff fella's.
Perhaps if Dom and Pascal would stop their "banter" and Dom would stop bad-mouthing Racing Green and their products we could achieve the fluffy nirvana you seek? In fairness though, there has been noticeably less of that of late so perhaps we have got there after all. t about spelling, past statements and the like! We are all lucky that he comes on here at all ! Not for much longer if every time he posts he gets verbal and digs.We all love our cars and need all the helps we can with them, lets just stop the play ground stuff fella's.
As for spelling and grammar, that was just a bit of fun. No harm intended.
jcpgasoline said:
Hear, hear! Moreover, I couldn't help notice that the petty spelling mistakes don't even appear in Dom's original post. Perhaps they were added for effect in the reply? If so, that really is just pathetic.
If you want to choose to believe I went to the trouble of misquoting Dom as opposed to him editing his post you can believe what you want. 
Although you may want to note Dom edited his post a few mins after mine and perhaps retract that insinuation.
Before we bog ourselves down in another slanging match......
Wasn't the first Syvecs development car a standard and well worn FF engine? That didn't seem to have any problems with timing being unduly pulled due to mechanical noise being confused with knock.
Sounds like something else is causing the knock sensor on 123 to go off. Given that 456 are not registering any knock, and mechanically they're identical, I'd be double checking the knock sensor function first.
Wasn't the first Syvecs development car a standard and well worn FF engine? That didn't seem to have any problems with timing being unduly pulled due to mechanical noise being confused with knock.
Sounds like something else is causing the knock sensor on 123 to go off. Given that 456 are not registering any knock, and mechanically they're identical, I'd be double checking the knock sensor function first.
jcpgasoline said:
Can you elaborate on the closed loop lambda targets in the case of oxygenated fuels? I was under the impression that the lambda sensors + ECU would automatically compensate for oxygenated fuels. I.e. the lambda sensors' purpose is to measure the 02 levels in the exhaust and feed that info back to the ECU which should then respond by making the fuel/air ratio either richer or leaner. Richer in the case of oxygenated fuels compared to non-oxygenated fuels.
I'm probably missing something very obvious here, but what I don't understand is why different closed loop targets should apply in the case of oxygenated fuels?
As an aside, it's probably worth pointing out that it's not just race fuels which are oxygenated. Much of the forecourt fuel is too.
It was all an example to just state what you can change.I'm probably missing something very obvious here, but what I don't understand is why different closed loop targets should apply in the case of oxygenated fuels?
As an aside, it's probably worth pointing out that it's not just race fuels which are oxygenated. Much of the forecourt fuel is too.
But generally speaking if you are running race fuel which allows more ignition timing which will reduce egt you can aim for a slightly leaner mixture.
dvs_dave said:
Before we bog ourselves down in another slanging match......
Wasn't the first Syvecs development car a standard and well worn FF engine? That didn't seem to have any problems with timing being unduly pulled due to mechanical noise being confused with knock.
Wasn't the first Syvecs development car a standard and well worn FF engine? That didn't seem to have any problems with timing being unduly pulled due to mechanical noise being confused with knock.
It should also be noted that us early adopters are all experiencing new things, feeding back to RG, Ryan and internally amongst ourselves - there is no substitute for actually putting miles on the engine and going from there.
As for the slanging match, I totally agree on both points - we've had enough, but I completely agree that the RG camp have had far too much thrown at it. Maybe the Power fanbois can wind their necks in as well, and we can settle it on the dyno (when my car is back and I'm allowed to drive again.... 4 weeks and 4 days for the latter....not that I'm counting).
Gents,
Lets not get this into a slanging match as its all good info and Dom has been very very interested in the syvecs as well as working together to find where more HP can be made. Cant fault him at all.
The difference on the knock traces is noticable on the FFF engine but the knock system was originally design on a Finger follow engine.
I must just add that the knock sensor is placed between cylinders 2&3 as i found these cylinder on all speed six to be the noisiest so it will pick up knock here easier and the levels of knock were are talking about here are very small and you have to have good ears to here it!
Will let the logs below do the talking though
No Knock
Knock Active
Also just to add to the debate
Currently where the engine makes peak power its using 67% of the injectors maximum flow. The Injectors that TVR Power and Racing Green use are 600cc Injectors.
On average from previous tuning of the SpeedSix engine you need around 5.8cc of fuel to make 1hp at the crank.
So 600 divide by 5.8cc = 103 x the number of cylinders (6) = 620… So at 100% duty the engine with fuel that allows the engine to hit MBT will ROUGHLY make 600hp with a Steady 3bar of fuel pressure .
You are using 67% of the injectors which holds the perfect lambda target for this cc/hp ratio at 0.9…… so take 67% of 620 = 417 so with fuel that allows the engine to find MBT which will need to be around 102ron on a speedsix it will make pretty close to 417bhp at flywheel with the current engine setup.
If the engine was only running 95ron as you mentioned Kev then the power figures you have are correct I would say.
Right off to the Dyno
Lets not get this into a slanging match as its all good info and Dom has been very very interested in the syvecs as well as working together to find where more HP can be made. Cant fault him at all.
The difference on the knock traces is noticable on the FFF engine but the knock system was originally design on a Finger follow engine.
I must just add that the knock sensor is placed between cylinders 2&3 as i found these cylinder on all speed six to be the noisiest so it will pick up knock here easier and the levels of knock were are talking about here are very small and you have to have good ears to here it!
Will let the logs below do the talking though
No Knock
Knock Active
Also just to add to the debate
Currently where the engine makes peak power its using 67% of the injectors maximum flow. The Injectors that TVR Power and Racing Green use are 600cc Injectors.
On average from previous tuning of the SpeedSix engine you need around 5.8cc of fuel to make 1hp at the crank.
So 600 divide by 5.8cc = 103 x the number of cylinders (6) = 620… So at 100% duty the engine with fuel that allows the engine to hit MBT will ROUGHLY make 600hp with a Steady 3bar of fuel pressure .
You are using 67% of the injectors which holds the perfect lambda target for this cc/hp ratio at 0.9…… so take 67% of 620 = 417 so with fuel that allows the engine to find MBT which will need to be around 102ron on a speedsix it will make pretty close to 417bhp at flywheel with the current engine setup.
If the engine was only running 95ron as you mentioned Kev then the power figures you have are correct I would say.
Right off to the Dyno
Edited by Ryan Griffiths on Wednesday 14th December 08:18
jcpgasoline said:
Hear, hear! Moreover, I couldn't help notice that the petty spelling mistakes don't even appear in Dom's original post. Perhaps they were added for effect in the reply? If so, that really is just pathetic.
I think you'll see, if you look at Dom's original post, that he edited it after Jon's post...As for the banter: it's been a very long time since I actually did throw something at Dom. One comment made me chuckle though, that was DonkeyApples remark about "Power open day" sometime last week. But in truth, I think both Dom and I have been way too busy with our own business to have a dig at each other here.
And I think that most of the people at the BSG/BNG last year did see Dom, Jason and me all 3 together having a quite normal chat and drink together
Edited by PascalBuyens on Wednesday 14th December 08:48
Ryan Griffiths said:
jcpgasoline said:
Can you elaborate on the closed loop lambda targets in the case of oxygenated fuels? I was under the impression that the lambda sensors + ECU would automatically compensate for oxygenated fuels. I.e. the lambda sensors' purpose is to measure the 02 levels in the exhaust and feed that info back to the ECU which should then respond by making the fuel/air ratio either richer or leaner. Richer in the case of oxygenated fuels compared to non-oxygenated fuels.
I'm probably missing something very obvious here, but what I don't understand is why different closed loop targets should apply in the case of oxygenated fuels?
As an aside, it's probably worth pointing out that it's not just race fuels which are oxygenated. Much of the forecourt fuel is too.
It was all an example to just state what you can change.I'm probably missing something very obvious here, but what I don't understand is why different closed loop targets should apply in the case of oxygenated fuels?
As an aside, it's probably worth pointing out that it's not just race fuels which are oxygenated. Much of the forecourt fuel is too.
But generally speaking if you are running race fuel which allows more ignition timing which will reduce egt you can aim for a slightly leaner mixture.
Edited by jcpgasoline on Wednesday 14th December 10:41
DonkeyApple said:
Ryan, does this mean that if the car is set up to optimise 97 RON there is little point in using say Optimax?
Plus, it will auto correct for 95?
How about if you have to use 91?
From what I understand, that would be 3 different maps. Each at a different position of the dial button...Plus, it will auto correct for 95?
How about if you have to use 91?
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