Discussion
I have just e-mailed this company and delivered to England the price is $218,although engines may not break due to lack of oil is it not possible that it could add to the longevity of the engine,my mechanical expertise is very limited but this for the money does seem a very good idea,just my 2p,
After speaking to a very respected TVR engine specialist, the whole lack of oil to the top end being the root of the problem is not true.
According to this chap, TVR ran several S6 cylinder heads completely submerged in oil to test the lack of lubrication hypothesis. They all exhibited the same mode of top end failure typical of a Speed 6 engine. The obvious conclusion was that the underlying reason for failure was down to the low quality surface finish of the valve gear components, not poor lubrication.
The same test was performed with higher quality components and all was well. In other words, poor lubrication to the top end was not the problem, component surface finish quality was.
Anyone know of any post Smolenski S6 top end failures?
According to this chap, TVR ran several S6 cylinder heads completely submerged in oil to test the lack of lubrication hypothesis. They all exhibited the same mode of top end failure typical of a Speed 6 engine. The obvious conclusion was that the underlying reason for failure was down to the low quality surface finish of the valve gear components, not poor lubrication.
The same test was performed with higher quality components and all was well. In other words, poor lubrication to the top end was not the problem, component surface finish quality was.
Anyone know of any post Smolenski S6 top end failures?
D14 AYS said:
I have just e-mailed this company and delivered to England the price is $218,although engines may not break due to lack of oil is it not possible that it could add to the longevity of the engine, my mechanical expertise is very limited but this for the money does seem a very good idea, just my 2p,
No is the answer, If Pre oilers gave longevity, all engines would have them as standard. A modern engine is quite capable of 1/4 million miles. How long do you want it to go for?..Its just another unnecessary modification and for £1700.00 plus VAT and fitting. A very expensive modification with no guaranteed benefit.
YI8TVR said:
D14 AYS said:
I have just e-mailed this company and delivered to England the price is $218,although engines may not break due to lack of oil is it not possible that it could add to the longevity of the engine, my mechanical expertise is very limited but this for the money does seem a very good idea, just my 2p,
No is the answer, If Pre oilers gave longevity, all engines would have them as standard. A modern engine is quite capable of 1/4 million miles. How long do you want it to go for?..Its just another unnecessary modification and for £1700.00 plus VAT and fitting. A very expensive modification with no guaranteed benefit.
plasticman said:
I am sure if any of us got 1/4 million miles out of our speed six engines we would be quite happy or even a quarter of that !Not many engines have a valvetrain as stressed as ours and I for one would like it lubricated all the time it is running .
My problem is the car is parked up for 1 - 2 weeks between starting so the top end will be completly dry. The S6 will not get oil to the head for at least 8 -10 seconds so metal to metal without lube for 10 secs cannot be good. Having oil pressure before cranking the engine can only be a good thing at best and a waste of £100 at worst, and £100 dont go far in TVR world. 
Alan
L1OFF said:
plasticman said:
I am sure if any of us got 1/4 million miles out of our speed six engines we would be quite happy or even a quarter of that !Not many engines have a valvetrain as stressed as ours and I for one would like it lubricated all the time it is running .
My problem is the car is parked up for 1 - 2 weeks between starting so the top end will be completly dry. The S6 will not get oil to the head for at least 8 -10 seconds so metal to metal without lube for 10 secs cannot be good. Having oil pressure before cranking the engine can only be a good thing at best and a waste of £100 at worst, and £100 dont go far in TVR world. Alan
Comfort Blankets can be bought for much less (January Sales coming up).
KillerJim said:
I`ve been reading various posts and most seem to agree that the S6 is lacking oil over the top-end during the first seconds of start-up (seem as high as ~10 seconds).KJ
Most also seemed to agree that Al Melling and AutoCraft were the S6 saviours, but that seems to have gone quiet.Edited by Daftlad on Wednesday 21st November 09:51
Edited by Daftlad on Wednesday 21st November 09:52
I admit , I thought there would always be a thin film of oil no matter how long it was left but I was wrong . After not starting my tuscan for three weeks I took off the rocker cover and wiped my finger across the cam and there was not the slightest trace of oil . Also , spinning the motor over on the starter motor Is not going to make much difference to stresses in the valve train apart from it will take even longer to get oil up there .
plasticman said:
I am sure if any of us got 1/4 million miles out of our speed six engines we would be quite happy or even a quarter of that !Not many engines have a valvetrain as stressed as ours and I for one would like it lubricated all the time it is running .
I was not refering to a speed 6 Turning the engine over on the starter to get oil up there is the worst thing you could do .. engines work by keeping metal surfaces apart .. high loading areas are kept apart with a hydrodynamic wedge of oil, this by necessity means a large volume of oil and high rotational speeds .. once you have neither of these then you risk premature wear.
A cam spins at half engine speed and the cam lobe has incredibly high peak loadings, so turning the engine on the starter is a killer for cams. Indeed, when starting a fresh engine after installing a new cam the cam manufacturer will specifically explain to never let the engine spin for any length of time on the starter, and once the engine is fired to keep it spinning at 2000-3000rpm for several minutes.
Getting oil to the cams on a SP6 takes up to 10 seconds from a cold start and thats with the engine fired and turning at 1000rpm plus .. how long do you think it would take to lube the cam on the starter motor alone? During this time the cams will have at best boundary layer oiling only, this isn't suficient to keep high load metal surfaces apart and they rely on their hardness to prevent failure, as we know the earlier cams and followers were anything but hard, and even later engines are being rebuilt (albeit absolutely nowhere near as regularly as in the past I agree). There does therefore appear to be a case for pre-oiling the cams and followers?
One thing on SP6 cam lubrication is that the finger followers didn't / don't have an annular ring inside, so they only spray when the hole in the follower lines up with the hole in the supporting shaft, so even pressurising the oil system off something like an accusump will likely as not not lube the majority of cam lobes, since the hole in the follower will most likely not be lined up wth the feed hole. You would also need a blinking big capacity accusump to feed the SP6 galleries in any case bearing in mind the 10 seconds needed for the oil pump to do it.
We are always told that by far the vast majority of engine wear occurs on start-up, so pre-lubing will help this situation?
A cam spins at half engine speed and the cam lobe has incredibly high peak loadings, so turning the engine on the starter is a killer for cams. Indeed, when starting a fresh engine after installing a new cam the cam manufacturer will specifically explain to never let the engine spin for any length of time on the starter, and once the engine is fired to keep it spinning at 2000-3000rpm for several minutes.
Getting oil to the cams on a SP6 takes up to 10 seconds from a cold start and thats with the engine fired and turning at 1000rpm plus .. how long do you think it would take to lube the cam on the starter motor alone? During this time the cams will have at best boundary layer oiling only, this isn't suficient to keep high load metal surfaces apart and they rely on their hardness to prevent failure, as we know the earlier cams and followers were anything but hard, and even later engines are being rebuilt (albeit absolutely nowhere near as regularly as in the past I agree). There does therefore appear to be a case for pre-oiling the cams and followers?
One thing on SP6 cam lubrication is that the finger followers didn't / don't have an annular ring inside, so they only spray when the hole in the follower lines up with the hole in the supporting shaft, so even pressurising the oil system off something like an accusump will likely as not not lube the majority of cam lobes, since the hole in the follower will most likely not be lined up wth the feed hole. You would also need a blinking big capacity accusump to feed the SP6 galleries in any case bearing in mind the 10 seconds needed for the oil pump to do it.
We are always told that by far the vast majority of engine wear occurs on start-up, so pre-lubing will help this situation?
Totally agree with your synopsis Julian. The only thing that worries me is
Your a dealer for Raceproved so you will always be biased (with good reason)
The cost of the raceproved pre oiler is astronomical, although I do agree that it will never sell in high volume so costs will naturally be high to cover the development costs etc. I just feel that as soon as the word TVR is mentioned that's the cue for big bucks.
I guess I am right in saying £1700 + Fitting + VAT.
OUCH!
I suppose I am still a bit cynical after the Craft fiasco.
Your a dealer for Raceproved so you will always be biased (with good reason)
The cost of the raceproved pre oiler is astronomical, although I do agree that it will never sell in high volume so costs will naturally be high to cover the development costs etc. I just feel that as soon as the word TVR is mentioned that's the cue for big bucks.
I guess I am right in saying £1700 + Fitting + VAT.
OUCH!
I suppose I am still a bit cynical after the Craft fiasco.
It's nowhere near 1700 pounds .. it'll still be expensive but i'm pretty sure they were hoping to sell for closer to 1000 pounds or maybe only slightly more, but certainly not 1700. There's a lot in the kit .. injection moulded cover with integral spray bars, pipework, filtration system, pump, electronic controller and bespoke loom which interfaces with the OE TVR engine loom, it looks factory standard.I'm not saying people shouldnt try their own things .. if someone thinks an accusump is going to improve matters then let them try it .. it's how ideas are born and part of a development path, but i'm not sure an accusump is the way to go (useful as they are for preventing surge on race cars etc where they rightly perform a useful function on a surge-prone sump system).
The Craft fiasco has done more damage than the pure financial and mechanical losses people endured, it's rocked the already naturally cynical TVR aftermarket market to the core. It's a wonder anyone manages to market any new items these days
The Craft fiasco has done more damage than the pure financial and mechanical losses people endured, it's rocked the already naturally cynical TVR aftermarket market to the core. It's a wonder anyone manages to market any new items these days
Edited by trackcar on Wednesday 21st November 13:33
trackcar said:
It's nowhere near 1700 pounds .. it'll still be expensive but i'm pretty sure they were hoping to sell for closer to 1000 pounds or maybe only slightly more, but certainly not 1700. There's a lot in the kit .. injection moulded cover with integral spray bars, pipework, filtration system, pump, electronic controller and bespoke loom which interfaces with the OE TVR engine loom, it looks factory standard.
That sounds betterWhy is £1700.00 being banded about on here ?
ps Got the clutch, Thanks, very professional your sister is. Just got to get the old clutch back to help pay for my pre oiler
YI8TVR said:
trackcar said:
It's nowhere near 1700 pounds .. it'll still be expensive but i'm pretty sure they were hoping to sell for closer to 1000 pounds or maybe only slightly more, but certainly not 1700. There's a lot in the kit .. injection moulded cover with integral spray bars, pipework, filtration system, pump, electronic controller and bespoke loom which interfaces with the OE TVR engine loom, it looks factory standard.
That sounds betterWhy is £1700.00 being banded about on here ?
ps Got the clutch, Thanks, very professional your sister is. Just got to get the old clutch back to help pay for my pre oiler
trackcar said:
Lots to contradict my last suggestion
Looks like I'm completely wrong again Joolz (I'm not so sure I am however or that you've covered all bases with what a cam manufacturer expects or requires during first start). We just need to agree to disagree as we seem poles apart on so many things.
Maybe thats why my hands never out of my pocket for engine rebuilds.
Edited by Daftlad on Wednesday 21st November 14:01
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