Does heel/toe cause any extra wear on any parts of the car?
Discussion
RobM77 said:
I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't heel and toe who drives as safely and smoothly as they could if they used heel and toe.
I'll take you out for a drive then ...
Although I can heel and toe, I generally don't as I completly separate the braking and gearchange. I rev match and so it is as smooth as a 'heel and toe', providing of course "I don't miss". The only advantage heel and toe would offer me, from a smoothness point of view is something the passengers cannot feel, and that is the gear leaver slipping into gear a little easier.
From a safety point of view, if I correctly access the situation and get the speed right, then there is no issue. If I am in doubt, then the speed is lower and as I'm expecting to brake, I will cover it.
Martin
I'd happily come out as a passenger with Don or MPH to be proven wrong, and thank you for the offers, but I still maintain that the techniques used on track to draw friction circles on the limit can be used on the road to draw a circle concentric to the limit, but much smaller, and therefore maintain the maximum safety possible. Any other technique will surely draw friction squares or triangles and thus approach the limit more at some times and less at other times, thus compromising safety.
For example, if one brakes, backs off the brake and then turns in, this will unload the front of the car promoting an understeer stance. For sure, the car may only be going at 40mph instead of a possible 70mph (so it's not actually understeering - well not visibly anyway), but what happens if you hit a patch of oil, mud, gravel or need to take emergency avoiding action? The answer is obviously "it will understeer". A driver that has passed some of that grip over to the rear tyres at turn in may not even start to slide, as his/her front tyres will still be under the limit of grip because the car was prepared properly for the corner.
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess
You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe.
Accidents are caused by the unexpected, so safe driving is all about reducing it through observation and also preparing the car for it so it is best placed to cope.
For example, if one brakes, backs off the brake and then turns in, this will unload the front of the car promoting an understeer stance. For sure, the car may only be going at 40mph instead of a possible 70mph (so it's not actually understeering - well not visibly anyway), but what happens if you hit a patch of oil, mud, gravel or need to take emergency avoiding action? The answer is obviously "it will understeer". A driver that has passed some of that grip over to the rear tyres at turn in may not even start to slide, as his/her front tyres will still be under the limit of grip because the car was prepared properly for the corner.
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess
You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe. Accidents are caused by the unexpected, so safe driving is all about reducing it through observation and also preparing the car for it so it is best placed to cope.
RobM77 said:
I'd happily come out as a passenger with Don or MPH to be proven wrong, and thank you for the offers, but I still maintain that the techniques used on track to draw friction circles on the limit can be used on the road to draw a circle concentric to the limit, but much smaller, and therefore maintain the maximum safety possible. Any other technique will surely draw friction squares or triangles and thus approach the limit more at some times and less at other times, thus compromising safety.
For example, if one brakes, backs off the brake and then turns in, this will unload the front of the car promoting an understeer stance. For sure, the car may only be going at 40mph instead of a possible 70mph (so it's not actually understeering - well not visibly anyway), but what happens if you hit a patch of oil, mud, gravel or need to take emergency avoiding action? The answer is obviously "it will understeer". A driver that has passed some of that grip over to the rear tyres at turn in may not even start to slide, as his/her front tyres will still be under the limit of grip because the car was prepared properly for the corner.
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe.
Accidents are caused by the unexpected, so safe driving is all about reducing it through observation and also preparing the car for it so it is best placed to cope.
Rob - you're in Hants. Me too. If you ever want a "demo drive" of the System Of Car Control I'd be happy to do you one. Some Saturday morning over the summer when neither of us is booked up and I'll take you out to some of Hampshire's finest back roads for a "completely safe hoon". For example, if one brakes, backs off the brake and then turns in, this will unload the front of the car promoting an understeer stance. For sure, the car may only be going at 40mph instead of a possible 70mph (so it's not actually understeering - well not visibly anyway), but what happens if you hit a patch of oil, mud, gravel or need to take emergency avoiding action? The answer is obviously "it will understeer". A driver that has passed some of that grip over to the rear tyres at turn in may not even start to slide, as his/her front tyres will still be under the limit of grip because the car was prepared properly for the corner.
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess
You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe. Accidents are caused by the unexpected, so safe driving is all about reducing it through observation and also preparing the car for it so it is best placed to cope.
You'd need to be able to get to somewhere convenient in the Basingstoke area.
'mail me through my profile sometime. I'm in and out of the country at the moment but sometime in early July might well work.
Don said:
RobM77 said:
I'd happily come out as a passenger with Don or MPH to be proven wrong, and thank you for the offers, but I still maintain that the techniques used on track to draw friction circles on the limit can be used on the road to draw a circle concentric to the limit, but much smaller, and therefore maintain the maximum safety possible. Any other technique will surely draw friction squares or triangles and thus approach the limit more at some times and less at other times, thus compromising safety.
For example, if one brakes, backs off the brake and then turns in, this will unload the front of the car promoting an understeer stance. For sure, the car may only be going at 40mph instead of a possible 70mph (so it's not actually understeering - well not visibly anyway), but what happens if you hit a patch of oil, mud, gravel or need to take emergency avoiding action? The answer is obviously "it will understeer". A driver that has passed some of that grip over to the rear tyres at turn in may not even start to slide, as his/her front tyres will still be under the limit of grip because the car was prepared properly for the corner.
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe.
Accidents are caused by the unexpected, so safe driving is all about reducing it through observation and also preparing the car for it so it is best placed to cope.
Rob - you're in Hants. Me too. If you ever want a "demo drive" of the System Of Car Control I'd be happy to do you one. Some Saturday morning over the summer when neither of us is booked up and I'll take you out to some of Hampshire's finest back roads for a "completely safe hoon". For example, if one brakes, backs off the brake and then turns in, this will unload the front of the car promoting an understeer stance. For sure, the car may only be going at 40mph instead of a possible 70mph (so it's not actually understeering - well not visibly anyway), but what happens if you hit a patch of oil, mud, gravel or need to take emergency avoiding action? The answer is obviously "it will understeer". A driver that has passed some of that grip over to the rear tyres at turn in may not even start to slide, as his/her front tyres will still be under the limit of grip because the car was prepared properly for the corner.
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess
You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe. Accidents are caused by the unexpected, so safe driving is all about reducing it through observation and also preparing the car for it so it is best placed to cope.
You'd need to be able to get to somewhere convenient in the Basingstoke area.
'mail me through my profile sometime. I'm in and out of the country at the moment but sometime in early July might well work.
I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it.RobM77 said:
No problem, thank you I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it.
Please do e-mail me. I'll see if I can convince you to have a go at the IAM! I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it. I love track driving too and used to do a fair bit in my Boxster (must do some again before long) but it's a completely different discipline...Edited by Don on Friday 16th May 12:16
RobM77 said:
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe.
You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe. loving that anology.personally i prefer to turn in on a slightly trailing brake as it seems to make the steering more positive with the weight lent slightly forwards. I guess this is more robm77's way than the other posters?
Don said:
RobM77 said:
No problem, thank you I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it.
Please do e-mail me. I'll see if I can convince you to have a go at the IAM! I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it. I love track driving too and used to do a fair bit in my Boxster (must do some again before long) but it's a completely different discipline...Edited by Don on Friday 16th May 12:16
RobM77 said:
No problem, thank you I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it.
Well, I'm only in Thatcham, so when Don's finished with you I'll show you how it's really done ... I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it.
Martin
I use heel and toe on road for a few reasons:
1. engine breaking increases wear and tear on engine/drive train, so H&T reduces wear!
2. makes for smoother driving when driving briskly or at higher revs.
3. its fun
Understand the advantages of the Police 'brake then change down' method, but it's not for me. H&T can be safe, it's just that people associate it with high speed and racing.
Also tend to blip the throttle with my right foot when chnaging down where braking isn't required. Again, for the 3 reasons above.
J
J.. said:
I use heel and toe on road for a few reasons:
1. engine breaking increases wear and tear on engine/drive train, so H&T reduces wear!
2. makes for smoother driving when driving briskly or at higher revs.
3. its fun
Understand the advantages of the Police 'brake then change down' method, but it's not for me. H&T can be safe, it's just that people associate it with high speed and racing.
Also tend to blip the throttle with my right foot when chnaging down where braking isn't required. Again, for the 3 reasons above.
J
1 engine braking...there is no material difference in engine braking that H&T in itself makes. The system of car control promotes early braking with the gearchange coming when the desired speed has been achieved - no engine braking. So with H&T, you can change early in the braking sequence (as it promotes you to do) and then the engine does play a part in the braking! Or you can change just before tne end of braking, same net effect wrt engine braking, but that's not fun.1. engine breaking increases wear and tear on engine/drive train, so H&T reduces wear!
2. makes for smoother driving when driving briskly or at higher revs.
3. its fun
Understand the advantages of the Police 'brake then change down' method, but it's not for me. H&T can be safe, it's just that people associate it with high speed and racing.
Also tend to blip the throttle with my right foot when chnaging down where braking isn't required. Again, for the 3 reasons above.
J
2 the system of car control makes the smoothness easier to do with seperation of brakes and gear change. It's easier to be smooth as you are doing less things at once.
3 Fun. Depends on your idea of fun! When I drive my german car that was designed around H&T, it would be rude not too! Most of the other cars I have are "funner" to drive without H&T. Fun is also about variety and the key thing about being a good driver (not that I think I am) is having a whole raft of techniques to use for the circumstances as necessary.
So the thing about H&T is that it does promote later braking, which is a little contrary to "the" system of car control, but hey who cares?.........
Bert
mph999 said:
RobM77 said:
No problem, thank you I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it.
Well, I'm only in Thatcham, so when Don's finished with you I'll show you how it's really done ... I'm only fifteen minutes from Basingstoke. I'm certain that I'll learn something (99% of my time is spent thinking about track driving!), so I'll look forward to it.Martin
Hooli said:
RobM77 said:
It's like doing up your shoelaces without sticking your bum out I guess You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe.
You may not fall over, but given a gust of wind or a nudge from someone else if you're slightly out of balance you'll fall on your head. If you're balance properly, it may seem unneccessary at first, but given the unexpected, you'll be safe. loving that anology.personally i prefer to turn in on a slightly trailing brake as it seems to make the steering more positive with the weight lent slightly forwards. I guess this is more robm77's way than the other posters?
Sorry, but your friction analogy is completely wrong. The circles only works as a metaphor for the limit of grip. It has no further application.
I suspect what is missing in your analysis is that advanced driving is a prioritised set of things. With fast progress not being very high, then turning in on the brakes to get more front end grip is way off the end of the priorities.
What is highest is observation, planning and then early action which gives you the smoothness that you see in the best guys.
Bert
I suspect what is missing in your analysis is that advanced driving is a prioritised set of things. With fast progress not being very high, then turning in on the brakes to get more front end grip is way off the end of the priorities.
What is highest is observation, planning and then early action which gives you the smoothness that you see in the best guys.
Bert
BertBert said:
I suspect what is missing in your analysis is that advanced driving is a prioritised set of things. With fast progress not being very high, then turning in on the brakes to get more front end grip is way off the end of the priorities.
Not always (the 2nd sentence). In a car with a very light front end (old school 911 for example), it can be desirable to have some gentle weight on the nose on turn in. It is not about cornerning near the limit of grip, just helping to eliminate understeer. It also means that should the brakes need to be applied suddenly (e.g. a blockage in the road on a blind corner), the car will stop a lot more quickly - an old 911 needs a moment to get its weight forward before it stops properly.I am not advocating trail braking all the time, far from it. But it is sometimes the best technique for the circumstances, and is sometimes quite high up the priority list for maximum vehicle stability and safety, ceteris paribus. What I do advocate, and have always advocated (as you do in your earlier post(s)), is an acute appreciation of all the "tools in the box", including the dynamics of weight transfer and grip management, and how and when best to use them.
Kind regards
Steve
Edited by stefan1 on Sunday 25th May 19:08
Edited by stefan1 on Sunday 25th May 20:02
BertBert said:
Sorry, but your friction analogy is completely wrong. The circles only works as a metaphor for the limit of grip. It has no further application.
Nonsense. Sorry Bert, I don't mean to be rude, but that is complete nonsense. Whatever speed you're doing you can draw your progress on a friction circle graph. What I'm pointing out is that, in a road situation, the technique of braking then turning in afterwards when the front isn't prepared for the corner will lead to an out of balance car, and that's dangerous. Let's say for instance that the bend is taken at 40mph and by braking then turning in afterwards you are at 70% of the limit of grip at the front and 30% at the rear (quite accurate I think). If you balance the car properly on turn in and prepare the car for the corner, you will be at 50% grip front and rear. This second situation is obviously safer, as if something comes along that halves the available grip, such as oil or slippery mud, the balanced driver will be taken to around 100% and will get away with it, whereas the unbalanced driver will go to 140% (i.e. a bloody great slide!) and end up in the hedge! What I am referring to when I talk about friction circles is that the safest way to drive is to draw circles (ok, they're egg shaped actually) with your driving that are concentric to the limit of grip at all times. Seperating braking and turning draws squares, so introduces points at whichthe "limit" is closer than others, and these points/corners are obviously dangerous - if you were driving properly you'd be much further from the limit.This is how to drive properly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LnMJflV5sA&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-K5MTMKuPQ
Before you all go saying that doesn't apply on the road (as I know you will!), try and imagine Jim Clark or Jackie Stewart driving you at low speed on the road. That smooth gentle technique where the car is driven with sympathy will be the safest way to drive from A to B as you'll be as far from the limit as possible at all times. Yes, I realise that observation and other roadcraft is more important, but fundamental to all of this is the ability to drive a car properly. What's the point in all this fancy roadcraft if your car is totally out of balance and not ready to take a bend? It makes just as much sense as doing all the roadcraft properly but not checking your tyre pressures or the condition of your brakes.
BertBert said:
I suspect what is missing in your analysis is that advanced driving is a prioritised set of things. With fast progress not being very high, then turning in on the brakes to get more front end grip is way off the end of the priorities.
I don't follow that. Driving properly and smoothly shouldn't take any effort. It should be natural and not limit the brain capacity that you have left to do other things. There is no reason at all why driving in a smooth and controlled manner should take any more effort than driving in a jerky or imbalanced manner. Did that Jim Clark video above looked rush, hurried or any effort for him to do?BertBert said:
What is highest is observation,
Absolutely.BertBert said:
planning and then early action which gives you the smoothness that you see in the best guys.
Bert
Planning something early won't lead to smooth driving though will it?!Bert
'Grip square' makes a nice sound bite but doesn't make a lot of sense to me. To follow that analogy I think we would end up with a cross rather than a square. The way I see it, the circle is gives an indication of the available grip, and it's up to the driver to decide which parts of the circle they are going to use. One objective IMO of an advanced driver should be to minimise the demands placed on the vehicle for a given level of progress, one measure of this is staying as far away from the edge of the grip circle at all times. Even if you aren't aiming for maximum possible progress, this gives you the best chance of avoiding a slide if the grip circle turns out to be smaller than you expected and gives you the maximum 'grip reserve' if you need to make an unplanned maneuver. I think this is what Rob has been saying too, and it seems common sense to me.
If you ignored the complications of changing gear under braking I hope most advanced drivers would agree that it is generally desirable to smoothly blend between braking, cornering and acceleration rather than separate these completely. The need to change gear under braking complicates this and the conventional response is to say that the vehicle should be coasting during the gear change. That's a step back from the general ideal of minimum demands on the vehicle for a given level of progress. I'm sure the reasoning behind it is sound, in terms of coming up with a simple and safe way of driving that anyone can learn with minimal training. But it's certainly not optimal in all respects and should never IMO be taken for granted as the ultimate technique that we must all aspire to.
If you ignored the complications of changing gear under braking I hope most advanced drivers would agree that it is generally desirable to smoothly blend between braking, cornering and acceleration rather than separate these completely. The need to change gear under braking complicates this and the conventional response is to say that the vehicle should be coasting during the gear change. That's a step back from the general ideal of minimum demands on the vehicle for a given level of progress. I'm sure the reasoning behind it is sound, in terms of coming up with a simple and safe way of driving that anyone can learn with minimal training. But it's certainly not optimal in all respects and should never IMO be taken for granted as the ultimate technique that we must all aspire to.
The problem is Rob, that the whole tenet of Advanced Driving (the one derived from Roadcraft), is to NOT have a friction circle, it is in fact to have a cross s GV8 says. All the braking is done and finished with well before the turn. You may not think that is right, but that's what it is.
Your perspective is too "car control" focussed. If that were the only priority, then fine, but that is not what Advanced Driving is about. It's about being well within the boundaries of car control to reduce the need for fine/limit car control.
So to the extent that the requirements of car balance (as you say weight forward on turn in) conflict with planning, reduction of complexity and early action, then Advanced Driving puts the turn-in-on-the-brakes at the back of the class.
Bert
Your perspective is too "car control" focussed. If that were the only priority, then fine, but that is not what Advanced Driving is about. It's about being well within the boundaries of car control to reduce the need for fine/limit car control.
So to the extent that the requirements of car balance (as you say weight forward on turn in) conflict with planning, reduction of complexity and early action, then Advanced Driving puts the turn-in-on-the-brakes at the back of the class.
Bert
Thanks guys, this is quite interesting and I'm learning something here It's always perplexed me why my IAM/RoSPA/Police friends and colleagues drive with such superb observation but poor car control.
I'm still not sure that I understand why controlling the car in this smooth "circular" manner should be at the expense of everything else. I do it naturally without thinking, and I'm hardly Jackie Stewart.
It's always perplexed me why my IAM/RoSPA/Police friends and colleagues drive with such superb observation but poor car control.I'm still not sure that I understand why controlling the car in this smooth "circular" manner should be at the expense of everything else. I do it naturally without thinking, and I'm hardly Jackie Stewart.
BertBert said:
The problem is Rob, that the whole tenet of Advanced Driving (the one derived from Roadcraft), is to NOT have a friction circle, it is in fact to have a cross s GV8 says. All the braking is done and finished with well before the turn. You may not think that is right, but that's what it is.
I'm perplexed, because you're right about the emphasis about separating braking and cornering but at the same time I'm sure most/all advanced drivers would also aim to smoothly transition on / off the brakes and blend cornering and acceleration.Of course there is a fundamental and crucial difference between cornering + braking versus cornering + acceleration, in that unexpected loss of grip under cornering + acceleration can be countered by removing the acceleration, and this may be why cornering + braking is apparently considered such an anathema. Still, I'd expect competent drivers to be aware of that and include it in their driving plan when judging safety margins, and not simply rule it out as a matter of principle.
I know for certain that I will continue driving on the road as I have always done, which is exactly how I drive on track, just much slower. To me it's completely logical that if I use the technique used to get the ultimate speeds at a low speed it'll be safer than a technique which would be inadequate and dangerous at higher speeds. I suppose it's a little like using a 100 tonne crane to lift an engine out of a car: it's complete overkill, but you know it's as safe as you can get!!
The bit I am keen to learn is the observation and tips and tricks of advanced driving, which is why I lurk here! Any actual driving technique that I learn will be from an expert on car control thanks very much!
The bit I am keen to learn is the observation and tips and tricks of advanced driving, which is why I lurk here!
Any actual driving technique that I learn will be from an expert on car control thanks very much!Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff