The problem of young male drivers
Discussion
You've taken that quote out of its original context:
"You shouldn’t cross your hands on the wheel
Remember when you first drove a car and crossing your hands on the wheel felt so intuitive and easy? And how your driving instructor instead forced you into that clumsy wheel shuffling motion required to pass the driving test? Well, there's the reason all trackday instructors have to do the opposite, and make people keep a firm ten-to-two grip on the wheel, crossing hands if necessary. Of course, what works on the race track doesn't in all situations work on the road but if you really want to feel what the steering is up to you need to forget what your driving instructor told you and trust your instincts."
Dan Trent, http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?c...
What he says is quite correct, but the close of his last sentence is badly phrased and could indeed be easily misconstrued. A dip into the relevant chapter of 'Roadcraft' or Paul Ripley's 'Expert Driving' will explain what he is saying in greater detail, explaining fully steering techniques other than pull-push and when they might be required.
Edited by EmmaP on Saturday 5th April 16:52
LaSarthe+Back said:
Could this be a slight contributory factor??
"forget what your driving instructor told you and follow your instincts" Yeah great, in fact why don't we just hand out licenses with Corn Flakes!!
http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?c...
Well yes we are moving away from 'being told what to do' through instruction & towards 'discovering what's best' through coaching. "forget what your driving instructor told you and follow your instincts" Yeah great, in fact why don't we just hand out licenses with Corn Flakes!!
http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?c...
That's not just here but all of the EU.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 5th April 10:53
Im a young male driver (23) and i'm lucky enough to own a Honda S2000, and one of the earlier ones that don't have the joys of traction control or stability assistance.
Ive gradually built up my cars since I passed my test in April 2002, and I think because of that I've respected the cars i've owned more, meaning I've not just gone mental.
Car History is
1993 1.1i Fiesta
1997 1.9 D Turbo 306
2003 Focus TDCi
2002 Puma 1.7 VCT
and now, my 2000 S2000
I think because gradually I have got cars that are quicker, and more able to move around, that as my ability has increased along with the performance of the cars my learning has continued at a controlled rate.
First time test passers who jump into a mid engined sports car or, even something a simple as a car with sporty suspension will go to the limit (As those without this do) and due to a lack of experience, talent, or other factor just dont have the awareness of what to do when it starts going wrong.
Ive gradually built up my cars since I passed my test in April 2002, and I think because of that I've respected the cars i've owned more, meaning I've not just gone mental.
Car History is
1993 1.1i Fiesta
1997 1.9 D Turbo 306
2003 Focus TDCi
2002 Puma 1.7 VCT
and now, my 2000 S2000
I think because gradually I have got cars that are quicker, and more able to move around, that as my ability has increased along with the performance of the cars my learning has continued at a controlled rate.
First time test passers who jump into a mid engined sports car or, even something a simple as a car with sporty suspension will go to the limit (As those without this do) and due to a lack of experience, talent, or other factor just dont have the awareness of what to do when it starts going wrong.
EmmaP said:
You've taken that quote out of its original context:
"You shouldn’t cross your hands on the wheel
Remember when you first drove a car and crossing your hands on the wheel felt so intuitive and easy? And how your driving instructor instead forced you into that clumsy wheel shuffling motion required to pass the driving test? Well, there's the reason all trackday instructors have to do the opposite, and make people keep a firm ten-to-two grip on the wheel, crossing hands if necessary. Of course, what works on the race track doesn't in all situations work on the road but if you really want to feel what the steering is up to you need to forget what your driving instructor told you and trust your instincts."
Dan Trent, http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?c...
What he says is quite correct, but the close of his last sentence is badly phrased and could indeed be easily misconstrued. A dip into the relevant chapter of 'Roadcraft' or Paul Ripley's 'Expert Driver' will explain what he is saying in greater detail, explaining fully steering techniques other than pull-push and when they might be required.
1. "Clumsy wheel-shuffling motion" does nothing to emphasise to younger drivers that for the majority of situations, push/pull is best. It says to me "If you do this you look like a t
t"2. "..all trackday instructors do the opposite.." implies that the professionals do it this way, and they are excellent drivers, so if you want to be an excellent driver, you should too.
3. "..if you really want to feel what the steering is up to then forget what was taught" says to me, and probably others, that what is taught for the L test AND the IAM is rubbish. Therefore, if you want to feel the steering, ignore what the recognised institutions have to say and do what's comfortable.
How does any of this encourage the younger male that advanced driving is something to consider?
Thanks for the feedback.
Andy
Actually LSB, reading through that quote again I see that it is very vague - a great deal more so than I initially thought - and could be easily misconstrued (bits in bold) so, yes it is, in that sense, bad advice.
Whilst young drivers think that they are good or good enough there is little incentive to do further training. I think it might take an accident or near miss to make some realise that they are not as good as they had imagined and acknowledge the need for further training. So, it is a question of attitude.
Whilst young drivers think that they are good or good enough there is little incentive to do further training. I think it might take an accident or near miss to make some realise that they are not as good as they had imagined and acknowledge the need for further training. So, it is a question of attitude.
Edited by EmmaP on Saturday 5th April 16:52
Great topic!
I am now 27, and have been driving since 17. I've managed never to have an accident, partly through luck but I like to think latterly through foucs on driving skills and judgement. Just over a year ago I did my Police response course which really helped iron out some bad habits and instill some good ones.
Personally I think most of the "solutions" presented are either unfair, unenforceable or a combination of the two. For me it simply boils down to the need for better driver training and continuing training after the initial DSA test.
To this end I've actually been taking my 18 year old cousin out for a few days driving after my aunt expressed concern at his driving. The ususal complaints: Too fast, too close etc.
I've really focused on the basics of a good advanced driver. Observation, Anticipation, a bit of car control and technique to smooth out the drive. He's come along really well and is a very good driver. I've also tried to make him aware of a few of his own "flash points". Competativeness behind the wheel, A lack of planning at times and a slightly brutal approach to the controls. We've discussed and experimented with progress vs restraint and had a good muck about in my cars and his (Mine, A 200SX and latterly a MK1 MR2, His a Pug 106)
I even let him drive my MK1 MR2, so he could experience a slighly more raw car, and one which is less sympathetic to ham fisted use of the controls. It also allowed him to make a couple of supervised single carrigeway overtakes, a skill that should be taught to every driver IMO.
Where am I going with this?
I think that the power is within our hands to nurture and improve the drivers of tomorrow. I think anyone with some form of advanced driver training and an ounce of octane in the blood should make it their mission to introduce a younger driver to the joys of advanced driving. It would be great if it was government endorsed, but in the absence of that if we're serious about it then we should be doing something about it, first hand.
I have tried twice now to contact local IAM groups with a view to becoming an observer so that I can do more of this, but alas no responses.....
I am now 27, and have been driving since 17. I've managed never to have an accident, partly through luck but I like to think latterly through foucs on driving skills and judgement. Just over a year ago I did my Police response course which really helped iron out some bad habits and instill some good ones.
Personally I think most of the "solutions" presented are either unfair, unenforceable or a combination of the two. For me it simply boils down to the need for better driver training and continuing training after the initial DSA test.
To this end I've actually been taking my 18 year old cousin out for a few days driving after my aunt expressed concern at his driving. The ususal complaints: Too fast, too close etc.
I've really focused on the basics of a good advanced driver. Observation, Anticipation, a bit of car control and technique to smooth out the drive. He's come along really well and is a very good driver. I've also tried to make him aware of a few of his own "flash points". Competativeness behind the wheel, A lack of planning at times and a slightly brutal approach to the controls. We've discussed and experimented with progress vs restraint and had a good muck about in my cars and his (Mine, A 200SX and latterly a MK1 MR2, His a Pug 106)
I even let him drive my MK1 MR2, so he could experience a slighly more raw car, and one which is less sympathetic to ham fisted use of the controls. It also allowed him to make a couple of supervised single carrigeway overtakes, a skill that should be taught to every driver IMO.
Where am I going with this?
I think that the power is within our hands to nurture and improve the drivers of tomorrow. I think anyone with some form of advanced driver training and an ounce of octane in the blood should make it their mission to introduce a younger driver to the joys of advanced driving. It would be great if it was government endorsed, but in the absence of that if we're serious about it then we should be doing something about it, first hand.
I have tried twice now to contact local IAM groups with a view to becoming an observer so that I can do more of this, but alas no responses.....
conanius said:
Ive gradually built up my cars since I passed my test in April 2002, and I think because of that I've respected the cars i've owned more, meaning I've not just gone mental.
.....
First time test passers who jump into a mid engined sports car or, even something a simple as a car with sporty suspension will go to the limit (As those without this do) and due to a lack of experience, talent, or other factor just dont have the awareness of what to do when it starts going wrong.
Agreed, I've taken a similar path, starting with a Mk4 Fiesta 1.25, then moving on to the old Mk3.5 Fiesta Si 1.6, an MX-5 and now my Elise......
First time test passers who jump into a mid engined sports car or, even something a simple as a car with sporty suspension will go to the limit (As those without this do) and due to a lack of experience, talent, or other factor just dont have the awareness of what to do when it starts going wrong.
One of the most important lessons I've learnt over time is to get out of the mind set of 'competing' with other drivers. A few years back in the Fiesta Si I remember having a 306 GTi-6 behind me, I stupidly kept trying to up the pace and get away from him and ended up entering a fairly quick downhill left hand corner WAY too fast for comfort. I lifted and the back end started to let go. An accident was avoided by massive flailing at the wheel and a lot of luck, but it changed my attitude to driving a lot.
Hey Bruce,
You may not recognise the name but I'm your next door neighbour with the BMW, we had a chat recently about the incident with your broken window
I've always been a car fan, starting with the obligatory small engined motor for insurance purposes (1.4 Focus) through to a Cooper S and now an E46 M3. I managed 3 points for speeding and a small fender bender in the first 3 months of driving which put me on edge due to increased insurance costs for the next 3-5 years as well as the possibility of losing my license if plod decided to reward me with further points for stupidity. This in itself was the single most important lesson I had and has held me in good stead for future cars as I was always aware of the consequences of my actions.
I believe that if I had known from the first day that a driving offence or any accident which arose due to my negligence would result in a lost license or crippling premiums, I would have never received those points or managed to slam into someone due it being the first sunny day since I had passed and admiring the local talent...
I'm not suggesting that every infraction should carry with it an instant ban or unpayable premiums for new drivers, however the increased and publicised possiblity of it would serve as a great way to stop 17 year old Barry's thrashing their clio's.
By the way, your sons mini sounds great!
You may not recognise the name but I'm your next door neighbour with the BMW, we had a chat recently about the incident with your broken window
I've always been a car fan, starting with the obligatory small engined motor for insurance purposes (1.4 Focus) through to a Cooper S and now an E46 M3. I managed 3 points for speeding and a small fender bender in the first 3 months of driving which put me on edge due to increased insurance costs for the next 3-5 years as well as the possibility of losing my license if plod decided to reward me with further points for stupidity. This in itself was the single most important lesson I had and has held me in good stead for future cars as I was always aware of the consequences of my actions.
I believe that if I had known from the first day that a driving offence or any accident which arose due to my negligence would result in a lost license or crippling premiums, I would have never received those points or managed to slam into someone due it being the first sunny day since I had passed and admiring the local talent...
I'm not suggesting that every infraction should carry with it an instant ban or unpayable premiums for new drivers, however the increased and publicised possiblity of it would serve as a great way to stop 17 year old Barry's thrashing their clio's.
By the way, your sons mini sounds great!
Edited by Deniz.S on Monday 7th April 17:36
LaSarthe+Back said:
stewie732 said:
Ricky_M said:
and "I raced this Civic Type-R, smoked him down this hill by the roundabout, its a 2 litre Turbo innit!"
No, it isniit.Edited by Ricky_M on Sunday 23 March 20:22
gdaybruce said:
We all know that according to the stats, the highest risk drivers are young males and that this is not so much because of their lack of car control skills or even inexperience, since both those factors applies to all new drivers, including young females. No, the primary risk factor is their attitude to risk, coupled with the need to prove themselves, especially amongst their peer group.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7333965.stmAbove is a perfect example of the situation you mention.
Males are the bigger risk-takers, which is something that the figures agree with, however the problem isn't limited to male drivers. All younger drivers do seem to believe they are the greatest driver in the world, as i'm sure we all did when we passed. On this basis then, how can the DVLA and government justify such a woefully brief test, which will enable a 17 year old to command over 1 tonne in metal at up to 70mph?
It is, in my opinion, one of the bigger contributing factors to young driver deaths. My proposed solution? Making the test much harder and incorporate all types of driving, e.g daytime, night-time, urban, rural, traffic and motorway. Insurance companies should be forced to offer a percentage decrease in premiums for those who do IAM or similara and pass. The percentage should be sizeable enough to discourage people from passing the standard test and just stopping, whilst the premiums themselves should be used to effectively price drivers with less driving eduacation and more 'minors' off the road.
Not a pallatble option, but better than the unacceptably high mortality rate.
Combover said:
gdaybruce said:
We all know that according to the stats, the highest risk drivers are young males and that this is not so much because of their lack of car control skills or even inexperience, since both those factors applies to all new drivers, including young females. No, the primary risk factor is their attitude to risk, coupled with the need to prove themselves, especially amongst their peer group.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7333965.stmAbove is a perfect example of the situation you mention.
Males are the bigger risk-takers, which is something that the figures agree with, however the problem isn't limited to male drivers. All younger drivers do seem to believe they are the greatest driver in the world, as i'm sure we all did when we passed. On this basis then, how can the DVLA and government justify such a woefully brief test, which will enable a 17 year old to command over 1 tonne in metal at up to 70mph?
It is, in my opinion, one of the bigger contributing factors to young driver deaths. My proposed solution? Making the test much harder and incorporate all types of driving, e.g daytime, night-time, urban, rural, traffic and motorway. Insurance companies should be forced to offer a percentage decrease in premiums for those who do IAM or similara and pass. The percentage should be sizeable enough to discourage people from passing the standard test and just stopping, whilst the premiums themselves should be used to effectively price drivers with less driving eduacation and more 'minors' off the road.
Not a pallatble option, but better than the unacceptably high mortality rate.
Whilst those few months and the superior skills are, without a doubt, a good thing in no way will this change attitudes. And a bad attitude to driving, one where competetiveness and aggression is displayed, rather than caution and tolerance, is the killer IMO.
And the problem with competetiveness and aggression is that they are human (and particularly male) traits. It's part of what we are - how we rose from the primordial soup. Countering that with wisdom is not an easy thing. I'm 42 and I'm still not sure I've fully mastered it.
[quote=Deniz.S]Hey Bruce,
You may not recognise the name but I'm your next door neighbour with the BMW, we had a chat recently about the incident with your broken window
... By the way, your sons mini sounds great!
Well, Hi Deniz: small world! I guess it's an alternative to chatting over the garden fence. (not sure all our neighbours agree about the Mini!)
I think the six points threshold for the first year of driving does have some effect especially if, as with yourself, you lose three of them. That must really focus the mind. As has been said, however, there's no simple solution to what is a fundamental characteristic of the human, and especially male, psyche: the urge to prove oneself and to take risks. Rather, it's a case of doing what one can to improve attitudes to driving through a mix of education and training, shock tactics and penalties.
However, people will only ever have a limited commitment to measures that are enforced with a big stick. They might comply because they have no choice but they won't believe in it. Somehow we need to elevate the image of driving to the point where everyone recognises that the test is the most basic starting point and that failure to achieve a more advanced level within, say, two years is actually rather shameful. How do we do that? Answers on a post card, please!
However, we could start with schools and colleges. Everyone responds to positive feedback and encouragement, so where are the 'New Driver of the Year' competitions, complete with local rounds, regional semi finals and a UK wide final event, all with schools and colleges fully involved. It might start to generate some awareness of the issues and would put advanced driving on the curriculum. Not in school time, necessarily, but I suspect that this is one extra curriculum activity that would interest 17/18 year olds and just might start a more positive outlook towards young drivers.
Anyway, just a thought!
You may not recognise the name but I'm your next door neighbour with the BMW, we had a chat recently about the incident with your broken window
... By the way, your sons mini sounds great!
Well, Hi Deniz: small world! I guess it's an alternative to chatting over the garden fence. (not sure all our neighbours agree about the Mini!)
I think the six points threshold for the first year of driving does have some effect especially if, as with yourself, you lose three of them. That must really focus the mind. As has been said, however, there's no simple solution to what is a fundamental characteristic of the human, and especially male, psyche: the urge to prove oneself and to take risks. Rather, it's a case of doing what one can to improve attitudes to driving through a mix of education and training, shock tactics and penalties.
However, people will only ever have a limited commitment to measures that are enforced with a big stick. They might comply because they have no choice but they won't believe in it. Somehow we need to elevate the image of driving to the point where everyone recognises that the test is the most basic starting point and that failure to achieve a more advanced level within, say, two years is actually rather shameful. How do we do that? Answers on a post card, please!
However, we could start with schools and colleges. Everyone responds to positive feedback and encouragement, so where are the 'New Driver of the Year' competitions, complete with local rounds, regional semi finals and a UK wide final event, all with schools and colleges fully involved. It might start to generate some awareness of the issues and would put advanced driving on the curriculum. Not in school time, necessarily, but I suspect that this is one extra curriculum activity that would interest 17/18 year olds and just might start a more positive outlook towards young drivers.
Anyway, just a thought!
I am a 17 year old driver myself and am well aware of the immediate stereotypes people have of me when I tell them that I drive a 1.2 Corsa bought by my parents. However, having been desperate to drive for as long as I can remember, I really don't want to be faced with the prospect of losing my license. I love driving but I also accept that my car will always take a few days to reach 60 so I don't see the point in trying to drive fast. Personally I would rather wait until I can afford buying, insuring and running something that is much more fun to drive and able to cope with making progress a bit quicker.
I think there are a few factors that have contributed to this attitude:
money - I don't want to have to pay for repairs or a new car
education - my year at school attended WestDrive, a program aimed at 17 year olds learning to drive. It outlines the dangers of driving through a few methods. The most effective for me being the pictures of crash scenes and a car recovered from an accident. Not nice.
friends - my friends couldn't care less how fast I drive as we are all in the same position.
Seeing a car upside down in a ditch, on a road I drive frequently, recently also brought home the dangers of driving, which also has lead to me seriously considering some form of advanced driving tuition.
Perhaps if more young people were shown the effects of dangerous driving, there would be a change in attitudes towards speed. Unfortunately, there will always be the people who believe their Corsa was built for speed.
I think there are a few factors that have contributed to this attitude:
money - I don't want to have to pay for repairs or a new car
education - my year at school attended WestDrive, a program aimed at 17 year olds learning to drive. It outlines the dangers of driving through a few methods. The most effective for me being the pictures of crash scenes and a car recovered from an accident. Not nice.
friends - my friends couldn't care less how fast I drive as we are all in the same position.
Seeing a car upside down in a ditch, on a road I drive frequently, recently also brought home the dangers of driving, which also has lead to me seriously considering some form of advanced driving tuition.
Perhaps if more young people were shown the effects of dangerous driving, there would be a change in attitudes towards speed. Unfortunately, there will always be the people who believe their Corsa was built for speed.
I'm a young male driver (21, driving for nearly 4 years), but have always tried to avoid the stereotype surrounding my attitude towards driving. Probably my desire to deliberately do the opposite to what people expect is a factor here, but I have been driving regularly since passing and have never felt the need to drive in a dangerous or deliberately agressive manor. In fact, I drive positively slowly and always safely, as far as I'm aware. I just think that public roads are from getting from A to B as safely and as conveniently as possible and that is how I drive. With friends in the car I am known to drive even more slowly and carefully (although obviously always going as fast as conditions allow) simply so they know they can always feel safe when I'm driving; I want my passengers to feel comfortable at all times.
If any of my friends wanted me to go faster (which they wouldn't), I would simply tell them to shut the fk up, or get out the car.
I think the problem lies with the great sense of freedom, power and independence that a young person feels when they pass the driving test, and this is somehow translated to driving in an agressive way. The solution in my mind is a test that is based on continuous assessment over a greater amount of time. This would allow for greater freedom for the person learning, and for the instructor/examiner to potentially spot and correct any problems relating to the inflated ego that some young people feel when they get into a car. In addition, the novelty of driving would be a lot less under a continuous assessment scheme.
Finally, more traffic police to spot all kind of dangerous and inconsiderate driving from all aged drivers would certainly help the problem.
If any of my friends wanted me to go faster (which they wouldn't), I would simply tell them to shut the f
k up, or get out the car.I think the problem lies with the great sense of freedom, power and independence that a young person feels when they pass the driving test, and this is somehow translated to driving in an agressive way. The solution in my mind is a test that is based on continuous assessment over a greater amount of time. This would allow for greater freedom for the person learning, and for the instructor/examiner to potentially spot and correct any problems relating to the inflated ego that some young people feel when they get into a car. In addition, the novelty of driving would be a lot less under a continuous assessment scheme.
Finally, more traffic police to spot all kind of dangerous and inconsiderate driving from all aged drivers would certainly help the problem.
evilmoose said:
....more traffic police to spot all kind of dangerous and inconsiderate driving from all aged drivers would certainly help the problem.
Get a load of this!His first post and he's getting at me already.
Very nice posts though from yourself and Craig, and others, which is so nice to see from the younger drivers especially. It would be good to see that approach being adopted more widely.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Don said:
Young people (and particularly young men) are determined folk. You make the test ooodles harder and they will simply step up to the challenge. Little old ladies and the like will fail in greater numbers but the youngsters might only be delayed a few months.
That was my point. In order to pass, they would have to raise their driving standards to suit. Hopefully offsetting the more niggling issues that new drivers tend to pick up quite quickly.Don said:
Whilst those few months and the superior skills are, without a doubt, a good thing in no way will this change attitudes. And a bad attitude to driving, one where competetiveness and aggression is displayed, rather than caution and tolerance, is the killer IMO.
Absolutely, but that is always much harder to combat. Better driver training and better education than standard is the only way. I'm a relaist, even with these measures, young people will continue to die at an alarming rate, but if we could reduce this with better education and higher standards, it's money, time and effort well spent.Don said:
And the problem with competetiveness and aggression is that they are human (and particularly male) traits. It's part of what we are - how we rose from the primordial soup. Countering that with wisdom is not an easy thing. I'm 42 and I'm still not sure I've fully mastered it.
I've not either. I'm 24 and like to think my approach to driving is laid back enough not to let my ego get in the way, but at times, I still see red. Everyone does, but i've managed to limit it drastically from what I used to be like in ths space of 5 years. That is one aspect that no amount of legislation or incentives will change.
p1esk said:
evilmoose said:
....more traffic police to spot all kind of dangerous and inconsiderate driving from all aged drivers would certainly help the problem.
Get a load of this!His first post and he's getting at me already.
Edited by EmmaP on Wednesday 9th April 14:07
EmmaP said:
p1esk said:
evilmoose said:
....more traffic police to spot all kind of dangerous and inconsiderate driving from all aged drivers would certainly help the problem.
Get a load of this!His first post and he's getting at me already.
Edited by EmmaP on Wednesday 9th April 14:07
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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