RE: Chimaera LS6

[vjj]

LS V8s in Miatas said:

Nice Dyno numbers Jon, Why do you guys over there spend so much time & money trying to build HP up to the ragged edge with Rover engines? The same thing is done over here with the quaint old Ford 5.0 V8s. Find a junk yard Mustang and $10,000.00 US later you have 375 HP, 260 Ft/Lb torque for awhile. It's like competing in drag racing today on a Harley-Davidson, the old technology, heritage thing eh? We're all running LS V8s for reliable, serious HP in a lightweight package. Tim's Dyno numbers in his Miata are very similar; 383 HP and 381 Ft/Lbs at the rear wheels running an OEM type, upgraded ECU using a MAF. GM spent millions designing the ECU, it makes consistant good performance, all the time, in any conditions. Have a great week-end!!!!!!!!

May I interject here! The answer to your question is.........noise. The RV8, paticularly in TVR format makes the greatest noise known to man.....well, this man anyway.
There are hundreds of old LS400 saloons available here for next to nothing...that goes for MX5(Miata's) as well, so supplying engines for your suggestion would be easy. However, us brits like our noisy, lumpy V8's and will stick with them for the time being,thanks.
In speed-camera land we only have noise and accelleration as our means of release. The 5.0 Rover V8 supplies both.
My old lady has just emigrated to Australia with some guy who look like crocodile dundee, so I'll be able to judge your creations for meself when I come to visit.

[tvrolet]

LS V8s in Miatas said:

Why do you guys over there spend so much time & money trying to build HP up to the ragged edge with Rover engines?

Because they are pretty readily available. Lots of cars used them in a greater or lesser state of tune, plus plenty in Range Rovers etc in the breakers. You just don't get SBCs and ford V8s in the breakers - the stuff would have to be imported. Not the end of the world, but you can't just nip down to the local GM or Ford dealer for parts as they don't stock anything for the V8s (or at least most don't). Even trying to get imperial sized fasteners from the local motor factors/engineers supply is like asking for rocking horse sh!t. I'm sure if GM actually sold a car in the UK in any numbers with an LS unit then engines and parts would start to filter out. As it is, the chance of finding a wrecked chevy in the local yard is next to zero.

vjj said:

In speed-camera land we only have noise and accelleration as our means of release.

Here, in Scotland, we have things in the road called corners. And to make it more exciting, there are dips and crests.
WB

[LS V8s in Miatas]

I guess we're spoiled over here when it comes to LS engines, they're everywhere. The really rare commodities here are the technically proficient people in LS Engine Packaging (ECU, harness, etc.) Mods and Tuning, that's my son-in-law's business.

Related to Dyno numbers, I just now saw dyno sheet of Tim Kerrigan's(Pres of Redline Oil) 2006 ZO6 with only 71 miles on it. 492 HP and 472 Ft/Lbs torque at the rear wheels!!!! They say the numbers will improve with more "break-in" miles!!!

The insider scoop here is that this new LS7 when cammed will show numbers in the 600 RWHP range!!!

And yes, I'm sure somebody here in the Colonies sells Rocking Horse Sh*t too.

Here in Northern Arizona, wide open high desert plateaus, gun barrel straights for 20 miles, curvy mountain roads and no Bobbys. I've done 167 MPH top out there.

Have a great week-end you guys!!

>> Edited by LS V8s in Miatas on Friday 30th September 17:15

[precat]

Great job Jon.
Well done. Look like honest good numbers.

[GTRene]

These LS7 sounds like LSheaven...powerrrrr

René

[boosted ls1]

Related to Dyno numbers, I just now saw dyno sheet of Tim Kerrigan's(Pres of Redline Oil) 2006 ZO6 with only 71 miles on it. 492 HP and 472 Ft/Lbs torque at the rear wheels!!!! They say the numbers will improve with more "break-in" miles!!!

The insider scoop here is that this new LS7 when cammed will show numbers in the 600 RWHP range!!!

And yes, I'm sure somebody here in the Colonies sells Rocking Horse Sh*t too.

By the bucket load. They sell it here as well

Boosted.

[vjj]

tvrolet said:

LS V8s in Miatas said: Why do you guys over there spend so much time & money trying to build HP up to the ragged edge with Rover engines? Because they are pretty readily available. Lots of cars used them in a greater or lesser state of tune, plus plenty in Range Rovers etc in the breakers. You just don't get SBCs and ford V8s in the breakers - the stuff would have to be imported. Not the end of the world, but you can't just nip down to the local GM or Ford dealer for parts as they don't stock anything for the V8s (or at least most don't). Even trying to get imperial sized fasteners from the local motor factors/engineers supply is like asking for rocking horse sh!t. I'm sure if GM actually sold a car in the UK in any numbers with an LS unit then engines and parts would start to filter out. As it is, the chance of finding a wrecked chevy in the local yard is next to zero. vjj said: In speed-camera land we only have noise and accelleration as our means of release. Here, in Scotland, we have things in the road called corners. And to make it more exciting, there are dips and crests. WB

I shall be visiting the A9 in the next easter to test out my new 5.2 Jon Eales Lump. Any reccomendations apart from Berriedale Pass?

[whitey]

Jon,

Thanks for taking me for a spin today, a Cerbera 4.5 RR, Tuscan RR/S or Sagaris would not see which way your car went in a straight line....!

I have not been scared by the power of a car for ages...!

Mental grunt! So smooth! The torque is immense and jeez does it rev...!

I cannot see tyres lasting long even with it's great traction!

cheers
Whitey

PS. Now all I need is this engine in my Tuscan....

[lap_time]

LS V8s in Miatas said:

I guess we're spoiled over here when it comes to LS engines, they're everywhere. The really rare commodities here are the technically proficient people in LS Engine Packaging (ECU, harness, etc.) Mods and Tuning, that's my son-in-law's business. Related to Dyno numbers, I just now saw dyno sheet of Tim Kerrigan's(Pres of Redline Oil) 2006 ZO6 with only 71 miles on it. 492 HP and 472 Ft/Lbs torque at the rear wheels!!!! They say the numbers will improve with more "break-in" miles!!! The insider scoop here is that this new LS7 when cammed will show numbers in the 600 RWHP range!!! And yes, I'm sure somebody here in the Colonies sells Rocking Horse Sh*t too. Here in Northern Arizona, wide open high desert plateaus, gun barrel straights for 20 miles, curvy mountain roads and no Bobbys. I've done 167 MPH top out there. Have a great week-end you guys!! >> Edited by LS V8s in Miatas on Friday 30th September 17:15

600 rear wheel hp? Um, there's this little tiny thing called drivetrain loss, where the power at the crank (or flywheel), which manufacturers use, as it's higher, actually 'decreases' or loses power through such things as the gearbox, etc, so you end up with a lower figure @ the wheels. So, you say a cammed LS7 will put out 600rwhp. Now the stock LS7 makes 500hp at the fly wheel. Let's use a benchmark of drivetrain loss, say 25hp (which is probably more than the real world, but it's an example). That would give a stock LS7 475rwhp. ypu say 600 with a cam. So, a 125rwhp gain with just a cam? I don't think so. Not even a full drag cam with huge overlap and a 300 degree plus duration would net this kind of resultm, unless combined with other parts (eg free flow exhaust, etc.). Maybe it would, I don'y know. But a 125rwhp gain from just a cam. Highly unlikely.

>> Edited by lap_time on Sunday 2nd October 04:52

[jellison]

whitey said:

Jon, Thanks for taking me for a spin today, a Cerbera 4.5 RR, Tuscan RR/S or Sagaris would not see which way your car went in a straight line....! I have not been scared by the power of a car for ages...! Mental grunt! So smooth! The torque is immense and jeez does it rev...! I cannot see tyres lasting long even with it's great traction! cheers Whitey PS. Now all I need is this engine in my Tuscan....

Ha ha - just scratching the surface - the roads are just not open enough nowadays for this thing - unless you head off into the middle of no where.

Roll on Le mans 06!

[LS V8s in Miatas]

Laptime, Thanks for the elementary automotive engineering physics lesson. We have a phenomena here in the colonies called gross under rating of net horsepower by OEM. Look for yourself at the posted, multi-run dyno sheets on LS1 Tech and let's hear your reconstituted theory. Highly unlikely.

FYI, I've personally seen a working prototype of a modded 2006 LS2 GTO engine with close to 700 SAE HP at the flywheel, no turbo,no supercharger, normally aspirated on pump unleaded.

What's your drive train losses evaluation compute still arrives at the rear wheels with that motor,eh?

Ain't no Rover Mate!!!

[lap_time]

LS V8s in Miatas said:

Laptime, Thanks for the elementary automotive engineering physics lesson. We have a phenomena here in the colonies called gross under rating of net horsepower by OEM. Look for yourself at the posted, multi-run dyno sheets on LS1 Tech and let's hear your reconstituted theory. Highly unlikely. FYI, I've personally seen a working prototype of a modded 2006 LS2 GTO engine with close to 700 SAE HP at the flywheel, no turbo,no supercharger, normally aspirated on pump unleaded. What's your drive train losses evaluation compute still arrives at the rear wheels with that motor,eh? Ain't no Rover Mate!!!

Emphasis: modded. It's quite easy nowadays to net a gain like that from simple mods: exhaust, cam, intake and a computer 'flash' tune. But that's in combination, not just one by itself. And yes manufacturers do intentionally 'underestimate' their engine's power figures. Just look at the late '60s, early '70s. Good example: Hemi 'Cuda. Supposedly 425hp, more like 600. You say 700hp @ the fly. From a normal LS2 6 liter. Ls7: 7 litres, 500hp (from chevy). So that means the LS7 should have over 700hp. Surely 700 plus HP in a 1400kg car would net 0-60 in less than high threes, no? And don't say 'traction issues'. By the way, how do those LS powered Miatas handle? I'm sure an engine weighing close to double that of the standard item, mounted up front, has noooo negative effects on handling whatsoever...

[LS V8s in Miatas]

No, the LS V8 T-56 combo weighs about 80-90 Lbs more than the cast iron, DOHC 4 cyclinder Mazda and 5 speed trans. suspension IE, upgraded springs & shocks handles changes. Also rear end is upgraded to Ford 8.8 IRS with posi and custom axles (additional weight back there now too) Total car wet about 2500 Lbs (TVR weight territory?) Imagine Triumph TR4 with (mods to cope with HP stresses) close to 50 /50 balance and 400 HP

Now you've got it!!!!!!!!

[jellison]

If my TR4 had 400 horses I would NEVER loose a race!

>> Edited by jellison on Wednesday 5th October 09:38

[boosted ls1]

Have to say I don't believe all the power claims I hear from the lsx engines. I've seen genuine dyno figures in the UK for stock ls1 engines and also cammed engines with ls6 inlets. The stock engines almost make what GM claim they make and the cammed ls1 engines make a shade over 400 hp. Pretty much what I'd expect them to make. These are dyno figures for engines with front end accessories fitted. I'd therefore expect an ls6 with mods to make 450-475 tops and that's with a fair amount of work. BB's are full of stock cars making 100 more bhp at the wheels then GM claim from the engine. It just doesn't add up. Transmission losses through 6 speed are accepted to be appx 50 hp.

Sure, specials can make more but the ls7 at 512 hp won't give up bucket loads of power easily. Lets say 600 bhp is a good bench mark and that's at the engine.

Boosted.

[lap_time]

LS V8s in Miatas said:

No, the LS V8 T-56 combo weighs about 80-90 Lbs more than the cast iron, DOHC 4 cyclinder Mazda and 5 speed trans. suspension IE, upgraded springs & shocks handles changes. Also rear end is upgraded to Ford 8.8 IRS with posi and custom axles (additional weight back there now too) Total car wet about 2500 Lbs (TVR weight territory?) Imagine Triumph TR4 with (mods to cope with HP stresses) close to 50 /50 balance and 400 HP Now you've got it!!!!!!!!

Yes, but you're defeating the entire purpose of the original car! Then again you are making a living out of it, which is more than I could say for myself (unfortunately I am too young to get a job in the car industry). So maybe I was wrong about the weight, but I don't think I was wrong about the power outputs. We could go on arguing about this forever, so I think I'll end it: to each their own. You like apples (LSx engines), I like oranges (Lexus V8s), and some people even like bananas (rotaries). So long as it gets you from A to B reliably, and in a preferably quick and fun manner, it doesn't matter what you drive. Hell, even if you drove a rented Ford Mondeo, so long as you like the car and you have fun driving it, it doesn't matter!!!

[jellison]

LS seem to make what they say on the tin power wish - torque maybe 5% down. Mine with a few more hours tuning would have made the 405 that the crate engine should. But it (the ecu) has to be tailored to the car). Mine should make maybe 420bhp and maybe 390+ft/lbs with a few more very minor mod's (nothing inside the engine). So at present about 1.5X the power of a std RV8 500 (SRR numbers)!

Mike - I think a cam and higher lift rockers and vlve sprinbg kit will kick an easy 40 more than I have now so maybe 460bhp beyond that you are talking taking the motor properly apart - but once you do that the sky is pretty much the limit.

I have more than enough for the time being!



>> Edited by jellison on Wednesday 5th October 10:04

[LS V8s in Miatas]

The ECU and mapping is extremely important! We see real world applications in numerous Sandrails running the exact crate engine packages purchased from the same suppliers installed in the same manufacturer's cars and the all perform RADICALLY different according to not just what ECU used but what tuner tweaked each car!

[thirsty]

388 bhp in a Chim sounds just lovely. I am extremely jealous !! The only issue I can find with such a car is keeping rubber on the rear wheels.

As for all the banter about BHP numbers, the LS7 was the very first engine certified to SAE J2723 standard. You can look that up, but what it means is that it's real horsepower with no fudging. 505 at the flywheel (with all drive accessories). No more, no less.

[boosted ls1]

thirsty said:

388 bhp in a Chim sounds just lovely. I am extremely jealous !! The only issue I can find with such a car is keeping rubber on the rear wheels. As for all the banter about BHP numbers, the LS7 was the very first engine certified to SAE J2723 standard. You can look that up, but what it means is that it's real horsepower with no fudging. 505 at the flywheel (with all drive accessories). No more, no less.

Until they redid the test and got 512 (well I think they did) but yes, your right about the sae test. It caught my eye as well.

Boosted.