197 / 197 Cup / 197 F1

[spoonoff]

I suspect a Trophy would be alot faster on the roads than a 182 Cup as the damping in the cup is not great for B-roads- and when you are getting bounced all over the road it doesn't fill you with confidence. This is one aspect the 197 is meant to have nailed.

[matt3001]

197F1 is my favourite variation, has the bucket seats, longer 6th gear. I think this will be the rare one in a few years time, the do drink fuel likes its going out of fashion though!

[Mutt]

matt3001 said:

197F1 is my favourite variation, has the bucket seats, longer 6th gear. I think this will be the rare one in a few years time, the do drink fuel likes its going out of fashion though!

The seats are an option on all 197 variants and the longer 5th and 6th gears became standard on all 197 variants from, I think, October 2007.

[TGJR]

matt3001 said:

197F1 is my favourite variation, has the bucket seats, longer 6th gear. I think this will be the rare one in a few years time, the do drink fuel likes its going out of fashion though!

What do you call 'drinking fuel'? I get over 30 from my Cup which I am quite happy with bearing in mind I live in the countryside and do mainly shorter journeys on twisty roads.

[matt3001]

TGJR said:

matt3001 said:

197F1 is my favourite variation, has the bucket seats, longer 6th gear. I think this will be the rare one in a few years time, the do drink fuel likes its going out of fashion though!

What do you call 'drinking fuel'? I get over 30 from my Cup which I am quite happy with bearing in mind I live in the countryside and do mainly shorter journeys on twisty roads.

Thats pretty impressive going, when I had the 197F1 press car for a week, I managed around 24-ish and thrashing it around 14-15 which is Focus ST territory of poor fuel economy. Maybe its just because i'm used to diesels but 24 being gentle seemed pretty poor

[Slagathore]

I've had 37mpg out of my 197. That was when it only had a few hundred miles on the clock. It was also an inredibly boring drive

I usually get around 19-24mpg. I'm not suprised, as I knew what to expect.

It does seem incredibly poor, though. Especially considering it's only a 2l.

[TGJR]

Thats strange because I have never seen less than 28 but maybe thats due to the 25kg weight saving of the Cup

I'm on track with it for the day next week so it will be interesting to see what mpg's I achieve then!

[Slagathore]

will be interested to see what it does round the track.

I think the lowest I've had it has been around 14mpg

[Catherine197]

With mixed driving of town/country/motorway and redlining on A roads it returns 29/30

[warren182]

TGJR said:

Yes a 182 Trophy had race spec dampers but the engine was the same as a standard 182 and some may even say it was a 'marketing ploy' to shift the last batch of old Clio's before the arrival of a new model (non of these went on sale in France which may say something?). At £15500 (same price as new Clio Cup) they needed to be good and they unquestionably were. However, things move on and manufacturers are rarely in the business of creating inferior evolutions of a model.

Nice to see you've decided to ignore the lap times, given that you were the person to bring them up. You, a 197 cup driver claiming the Trophy as a marketing ploy. Biased nonsense only serves to make you look rather stupid. When Renaultsport engineers themselves say it's unfair to compare the 197's to the Trophy, due to the quality of the Sachs dampers, you have to ask which is the more capable car. I don't think it's the more powerful car, with wider rubber, better brakes, wider track that laps slower (same track, same day, same driver).

[TGJR]

My opinion is not biased as I bought a 197 cup out of personal choice. Someone who goes by the name warren 182 obviously would never be biased to a 182. Your failiure to spot tongue in cheek comment and unqualified personal comments tell me all I need to know about you.

[warren182]

Not addressing the lap times still? Interesting, given that you brought them up. Personally think the 197 is a great car, more refined, spacious, safe than previous hot clio's. Having driven both, I'd still have the Trophy for pure driving fun. Wouldn't have a cup as the weight saving is insignificant, and the lack of full steering adjustment would put me off.

[TGJR]

warren182 said:

Not addressing the lap times still? Interesting, given that you brought them up. Personally think the 197 is a great car, more refined, spacious, safe than previous hot clio's. Having driven both, I'd still have the Trophy for pure driving fun. Wouldn't have a cup as the weight saving is insignificant, and the lack of full steering adjustment would put me off.

Lap times are dependant upon a driver and his/her driving style. To sight one example of a lap time is not a definative conclusion. I had my 197 on track yesterday in pretty wet conditions and it handled superbly. I have always liked the wet as it is a great leveller of cars and shows hidden qualities of a chassis as everything is more exagerated. I agree that 25kg is a modest weight saving but to call it insignificant!!! If you were going on a track day would you leave a sack of potatoes in the car???

[Mutt]

TGJR said:

warren182 said:

Not addressing the lap times still? Interesting, given that you brought them up. Personally think the 197 is a great car, more refined, spacious, safe than previous hot clio's. Having driven both, I'd still have the Trophy for pure driving fun. Wouldn't have a cup as the weight saving is insignificant, and the lack of full steering adjustment would put me off.

Lap times are dependant upon a driver and his/her driving style. To sight one example of a lap time is not a definative conclusion. I had my 197 on track yesterday in pretty wet conditions and it handled superbly. I have always liked the wet as it is a great leveller of cars and shows hidden qualities of a chassis as everything is more exagerated. I agree that 25kg is a modest weight saving but to call it insignificant!!! If you were going on a track day would you leave a sack of potatoes in the car???

I'm not getting embroiled in the 182 vs 197 argument because I think it's pointless, but I do agree about the weight saving being modest, at best. And it's 20 kilos, not 25. So, no a bag of potatoes would not be a permanent fixture in my boot, but I might have a half a tank in my 197 and you might have a full one. Plus I'm 70 kgs, you might be 90...

What I'm getting at is that 20 kgs can be found or lost. The R26.R, for instance, is 125 kilos lighter. That's a lot of potatoes or a big fat driver versus a very slight one and, in my opinion, represents a much more significant weight saving.

[TGJR]

Interestingly the 182 Cup was just 20 kg lighter than the normal 182. Weight loss is weight loss no matter how much fuel is on board or how fat/skinny the driver is. If you want to argue that 1240kg = 1220kg then I'm can't really think of anything else to add!

I think the primary reason for the cheaper/lighter dash in the cup was to save money to offer the car for £1000 less to people who are'nt bothered about the dash feel and a few electronic gadgets. In fact, with cup chassis added to a 197 the difference is £1400. Its down to personal preference but weight is physics.

Re. The R26R - it has no back seats, perspex side windows etc. so it does achieve a highly significant weight loss unsuprisingly.

Edited by TGJR on Friday 1st August 10:44

[Mutt]

1240kg doesn't equal 1220kg, obviously. However 20 kilos is a 1.6% weight saving. It's nothing, it's the difference between a fat dri...

You get the idea. The point I'm making is that you can't claim 20 kilos off the weight transforms the car. It's insignificant. Indeed, Renault don't even claim it enhances the performance. The stats for performance and economy figures are exactly the same!

ETA: I'm also not trying to say that you did "claim it transforms the car". "You" was meant in the general sense to make the wider point that you made which is that the Cup is basically about price, not performance.

Edited by Mutt on Friday 1st August 10:51

[Slagathore]

TGJR said:

I had my 197 on track yesterday in pretty wet conditions and it handled superbly.

What sort of MPG was the car returning?

[Mutt]

sgathore said:

TGJR said:

I had my 197 on track yesterday in pretty wet conditions and it handled superbly.

What sort of MPG was the car returning?

If it helps I got around 18 mpg around Snetterton in the dry.

[warren182]

TGJR said:

warren182 said:

Not addressing the lap times still? Interesting, given that you brought them up. Personally think the 197 is a great car, more refined, spacious, safe than previous hot clio's. Having driven both, I'd still have the Trophy for pure driving fun. Wouldn't have a cup as the weight saving is insignificant, and the lack of full steering adjustment would put me off.

Lap times are dependant upon a driver and his/her driving style. To sight one example of a lap time is not a definative conclusion. I had my 197 on track yesterday in pretty wet conditions and it handled superbly. I have always liked the wet as it is a great leveller of cars and shows hidden qualities of a chassis as everything is more exagerated. I agree that 25kg is a modest weight saving but to call it insignificant!!! If you were going on a track day would you leave a sack of potatoes in the car???

The lap times were set by the same driver. Got out of one into the other car, same day, same conditions.

[TGJR]

Mutt said:

sgathore said:

TGJR said:

I had my 197 on track yesterday in pretty wet conditions and it handled superbly.

What sort of MPG was the car returning?

If it helps I got around 18 mpg around Snetterton in the dry.

14.9mpg around croft in the wet and I was keeping the revs below 6500rpm. I used to get 8-9 mpg out of my Sagaris on track so I had thought the Clio would do a bit more but who cares!