4.4l Arnage - "unloved" but not cheaper than Red Label
Discussion
Why aren't they much cheaper than the Red Label models? Quick search on Autotrader showed that both variants are more or less the same, with the first 5 bottom-of-the-barrel ones all being RLs.
I thought all the experts claim how great the RL is and how boring/underpowered/soulless the 4.4/GL. Normally this should be reflected in 2nd hand prices.
Or is it that these kind of cars are priced rather on overall history/condition and not so much on spec/variant/extras?
Or is all this "red label is better than green" an urban/auto hack myth made up by people who never owned one, let alone compared them side by side?
I am very keen on the GL and am still trying to find out why that (in the eyes of the "experts"/pub bores) would be a mistake.
I thought all the experts claim how great the RL is and how boring/underpowered/soulless the 4.4/GL. Normally this should be reflected in 2nd hand prices.
Or is it that these kind of cars are priced rather on overall history/condition and not so much on spec/variant/extras?
Or is all this "red label is better than green" an urban/auto hack myth made up by people who never owned one, let alone compared them side by side?
I am very keen on the GL and am still trying to find out why that (in the eyes of the "experts"/pub bores) would be a mistake.
Rushmore said:
Why aren't they much cheaper than the Red Label models? Quick search on Autotrader showed that both variants are more or less the same, with the first 5 bottom-of-the-barrel ones all being RLs.
I thought all the experts claim how great the RL is and how boring/underpowered/soulless the 4.4/GL. Normally this should be reflected in 2nd hand prices.
Or is it that these kind of cars are priced rather on overall history/condition and not so much on spec/variant/extras?
Or is all this "red label is better than green" an urban/auto hack myth made up by people who never owned one, let alone compared them side by side?
I am very keen on the GL and am still trying to find out why that (in the eyes of the "experts"/pub bores) would be a mistake.
Buy what you want. Drive both first.I thought all the experts claim how great the RL is and how boring/underpowered/soulless the 4.4/GL. Normally this should be reflected in 2nd hand prices.
Or is it that these kind of cars are priced rather on overall history/condition and not so much on spec/variant/extras?
Or is all this "red label is better than green" an urban/auto hack myth made up by people who never owned one, let alone compared them side by side?
I am very keen on the GL and am still trying to find out why that (in the eyes of the "experts"/pub bores) would be a mistake.
There are a few people on this forum who have bought and sold 100+ Arnage, they have given their opinions, but how you process their thoughts is up to you.
A Bentley is a Bentley, you are not going to buy an Arnage for £10k, the price differential in the trade between a early RL and a GL would be circa 3 or 4 grand tops.
A RL gives you the proper Bentley experience, a lazy thumping engine full of torque, if you have an inkling towards BMW/Mercs, then a GL might be for you, however as a buyer and seller of many Arnage myself, I prefer the RL, and I have yet to meet anyone who prefers the GL.
Ps. Dont think they will get very much cheaper so get one bought, then the experts/pub bores can advise you how to fix it when it breaks
Edited by POORCARDEALER on Saturday 27th October 22:12
Hi PCD - thanks for your advice, as always.
I have driven both, under normal conditions, no autobahn racing, track etc.
Yes, the RL is a bit quicker/has more torque/whatever. Still - the GL is a fine car.
Something to consider: Road tax in Germany is based on the displacement of the engine (we call it "envy tax") and its emission class. Taking this into account, and also the higher insurance rates for the RL, the higher maintenance (esp oil changes) and its fuel consumption, the overall difference between RL and GL, based on the assumption that i will get tired of the car (RHD being impractical in car parks etc, the sheer bulk) after 4 years, the overall difference in cost will be around 5000 GBP. A lot of money? Yes, if you take into account that in Germany you need to gross 10k to make 5k.
Now, yes, I know, if you have to ask the price, then you cant afford it, bla bla bla. This is a vanity purchase anyway, and people over here in Germany will think I am utterly mad, no matter what engine is in it. Hm, come to think of it - some of my friends will ask me why I didnt go for the Arnage T. So, even a RL is not the final solution:-)
SO - my question is: will I be in tears every time I start the car and wish I had the RL? Can I live with the otherwise fine BMW v8 (used in much simpler form in the Range Rover as well)? Besides the engine (and the slightly improved rear space situtation, which is not relevant for me) GL and RL are the same car, right? I would only buy a GL with RL upgrades as often offered, so no 17" wheels or amber lights for me.
PS: Just to put everything into perspective, GL LHD in Germany start at 40k, and RL easily reach 60k. For 12 year old cars. Which are impractical to use for someone who needs to go to the airport 2-3 times a week. And only wants this as a toy.
I have driven both, under normal conditions, no autobahn racing, track etc.
Yes, the RL is a bit quicker/has more torque/whatever. Still - the GL is a fine car.
Something to consider: Road tax in Germany is based on the displacement of the engine (we call it "envy tax") and its emission class. Taking this into account, and also the higher insurance rates for the RL, the higher maintenance (esp oil changes) and its fuel consumption, the overall difference between RL and GL, based on the assumption that i will get tired of the car (RHD being impractical in car parks etc, the sheer bulk) after 4 years, the overall difference in cost will be around 5000 GBP. A lot of money? Yes, if you take into account that in Germany you need to gross 10k to make 5k.
Now, yes, I know, if you have to ask the price, then you cant afford it, bla bla bla. This is a vanity purchase anyway, and people over here in Germany will think I am utterly mad, no matter what engine is in it. Hm, come to think of it - some of my friends will ask me why I didnt go for the Arnage T. So, even a RL is not the final solution:-)
SO - my question is: will I be in tears every time I start the car and wish I had the RL? Can I live with the otherwise fine BMW v8 (used in much simpler form in the Range Rover as well)? Besides the engine (and the slightly improved rear space situtation, which is not relevant for me) GL and RL are the same car, right? I would only buy a GL with RL upgrades as often offered, so no 17" wheels or amber lights for me.
PS: Just to put everything into perspective, GL LHD in Germany start at 40k, and RL easily reach 60k. For 12 year old cars. Which are impractical to use for someone who needs to go to the airport 2-3 times a week. And only wants this as a toy.
Edited by Rushmore on Sunday 28th October 11:13
Edited by Rushmore on Sunday 28th October 11:18
Rushmore said:
GL and RL are the same car, right?
No, wrong. There were a multitude of improvements between the Arnage, to give it the correct name, and the Arnage Red Label, including brakes, suspension, steering, sat nav etc. When selling these cars new we were told by Crewe that VW invested as much money in the upgrade as Vickers had spent on developing the Arnage/Seraph in the first place, so not minor changes.I can't see what you are driving at here Rushmore, you seem to want peoples approval of your intended purchase, just do what YOU want to do, you appear to have done all your homework so just make your choice and go and enjoy it.
Hi B&S - I know that I am, sort of, "missing" the updated car when going for the Unlabeled Arnage ("No Label" Arnage) (GL indeed only means a very small number of cars). I just want to find out what I will be "missing" (i.e. more power, "better" handling/harsher ride) and how that relates to my preferences and also how that relates to the price difference.
PCD said the RL gives the real Bentley experience. Then what does the GL/NL do?
You said there are a lot of "improvements". So how does a RL differ in that respect to the GL/NL? Are they totally unbearable?
PCD said the RL gives the real Bentley experience. Then what does the GL/NL do?
You said there are a lot of "improvements". So how does a RL differ in that respect to the GL/NL? Are they totally unbearable?
Rushmore said:
Or is it that these kind of cars are priced rather on overall history/condition and not so much on spec/variant/extras?
That has a lot to do with it. Realism or otherwise of vendor's opinion of value is another: vendors of 4.4s may share your view that their cars are no different from 6.75s.Rushmore said:
Or is all this "red label is better than green" an urban/auto hack myth made up by people who never owned one, let alone compared them side by side?
No, it is a function of the fact that enough Bentley buyers who were prepared to spend over £150,000 on a car told Bentley that they did not like the 4.4 experience, to persuade Bentley to realise that fitting the 4.4 had been a mistake and so to go to the trouble and expense of bringing the 6.75 out of retirement.Rushmore said:
I am very keen on the GL and am still trying to find out why that (in the eyes of the "experts"/pub bores) would be a mistake.
Same reason it was a mistake to fit the 4.4 engine in the first place - 6.75 is better.Time to go back to the pub and read a few more back copies of the Autocar!
Bluebottle911 said:
No, it is a function of the fact that enough Bentley buyers who were prepared to spend over £150,000 on a car told Bentley that they did not like the 4.4 experience, to persuade Bentley to realise that fitting the 4.4 had been a mistake and so to go to the trouble and expense of bringing the 6.75 out of retirement.
Vickers didn't allow Crewe the budget to do the work on the engine and used a lot of money setting up there own plant to produce the new bodyshell hence they went to BMW for their engines. It was then the new owners VW who didn't want to be using one of their rivals engines in their new flagship, so it was they who made that decision to rework the old engine to fit it into the Arnage and to make it pass the new emission regulations which were being introduced. As I said earlier they claimed to have spent as much money on the Red Label upgrade as had been spent developing the Arnage/Seraph in the first place.[quote=buyer&seller]
It was then the new owners VW who didn't want to be using one of their rivals engines in their new flagship, so it was they who made that decision to rework the old engine to fit it into the Arnage
[/quote]
THAT is the story I remember (and which made me win Pub Quiz recently)
[quote=Bluebottle911]the fact that enough Bentley buyers who were prepared to spend over £150,000 on a car told Bentley that they did not like the 4.4 experience, to persuade Bentley to realise that fitting the 4.4 had been a mistake
[/quote]
While THAT sound a bit too good to be true. A car manufacturer listening to the demands of its customers.
It was then the new owners VW who didn't want to be using one of their rivals engines in their new flagship, so it was they who made that decision to rework the old engine to fit it into the Arnage
[/quote]
THAT is the story I remember (and which made me win Pub Quiz recently)
[quote=Bluebottle911]the fact that enough Bentley buyers who were prepared to spend over £150,000 on a car told Bentley that they did not like the 4.4 experience, to persuade Bentley to realise that fitting the 4.4 had been a mistake
[/quote]
While THAT sound a bit too good to be true. A car manufacturer listening to the demands of its customers.
Had a few BMW-engined full-fat Range Rovers (the L322 chassis with the M62 lump). Decent enough power but a bit intrusive in the noise department and too much trouble with the Vanos system. Decided to launch both of them and am holding out for an '06 L322 with the Jag engine.
Of course, I did just buy another L322 with a blown up BM engine. But for $1,500 US, it was hard to pass up
AS B&S says, it was indeed Vickers who made the mistake of penny pinching by buying BMW engines for the Arnage instead of investing in the developing the 6.75, but VW did not reverse this just out of corporate pride, as it was a very expensive exercise. Corporate pride was probably one factor, but there were other, more practical considerations, such as the uncertainty of the future supply of BMW engines (BMW had threatened to stop selling their engines to Bentley under VW ownership, a threat subsequently withdrawn when the two companies came to an agreement over the future of R-R production at Crewe under VW ownership while BMW were building the Goodwood factory and developing the Phantom), although this could presumably have been solved by resorting to an existing engine from within the VW group. However, probably the most significant reason for their choosing to go back to the 6.75 was the fact that regular customers had voted with their wallets by not trading in their Turbo Rs for Arnages in large enough numbers.
When customers send clear messages by not buying cars, car manufacturers do indeed listen to their customers. At least the successful ones do - the others go out of business. It may not be entirely coincidental that VW have a somewhat better track record in making and selling cars than Vickers.
Even VW, however, did hedge their bets by continuing to offer the BMW engine in the Arnage Green Label alongside the Arnage Red Label, but sales proved that the 6.75 was what customers wanted, so the Green Label was dropped and the 6.75 continued to be the engine of choice for the Arnage and its successor.
B&S has rightly highlighted the fact that It is important to distinguish between the Arnage and the Arnage Green Label. If you buy an Arnage Green Label, as distinct from an Arnage, then you will get the various advantages that came when VW re-engineered the Arnage to take the 6.75. If you buy either an Arnage or an Arnage Green Label in preference to an Arnage Red Label, you will also get the advantages of the 4.4 engine over the 6.75 in terms of its more modern design. What you will not get are the (modest) increase in power and (massive) increase in torque, that came with the 6.75 in the Red Label and the driving characteristics that came with this. If that suits you, that's fine. But most of those of us on this forum who own or have driven cars with the 6.75, believe it suits the car better, as did buyers of new Bentleys when they had a choice of Green or Red Label Arnages in their local Bentley agent's showroom.
I suppose it is a bit like the choice of saloon cars in the Bentley range today. After driving a Flying Spur Speed and a Mulsanne back to back shortly after the launch of the latter, I was left in no doubt as to which was the more accomplished car (Flying Spur), but I was also in no doubt as to which I would prefer to own (Mulsanne). My recollection is that when I did the same in 2000, my conclusion was not so ambiguous: the Red label was the winner on both counts. However, when I did the same exercise with the later incarnations of the Arnage, I was again split between the two: with my head, I would have opted for the Arnage R, but my heart definitely said T. In fact it positively shouted it!
Come to think of it, why don't you go for an Arnage T - it may be totally archaic and rather silly, but it is utterly magnificent, as a Bentley should be. They're not a lot more money than an Arnage Green / Red Label.
While I have considered changing my car for an Arnage, or a Continental R / T, or even a Continental GT / GTC, I'm still in love with my Turbo R after almost a decade of ownership and it really is a wole load of "bang for your bucks", so it is still here and probably will be for a very long time to come. However, variety is the spice of life, so I have just added something completely different (and even less sensible than an Arnage T) to my stable.
When customers send clear messages by not buying cars, car manufacturers do indeed listen to their customers. At least the successful ones do - the others go out of business. It may not be entirely coincidental that VW have a somewhat better track record in making and selling cars than Vickers.
Even VW, however, did hedge their bets by continuing to offer the BMW engine in the Arnage Green Label alongside the Arnage Red Label, but sales proved that the 6.75 was what customers wanted, so the Green Label was dropped and the 6.75 continued to be the engine of choice for the Arnage and its successor.
B&S has rightly highlighted the fact that It is important to distinguish between the Arnage and the Arnage Green Label. If you buy an Arnage Green Label, as distinct from an Arnage, then you will get the various advantages that came when VW re-engineered the Arnage to take the 6.75. If you buy either an Arnage or an Arnage Green Label in preference to an Arnage Red Label, you will also get the advantages of the 4.4 engine over the 6.75 in terms of its more modern design. What you will not get are the (modest) increase in power and (massive) increase in torque, that came with the 6.75 in the Red Label and the driving characteristics that came with this. If that suits you, that's fine. But most of those of us on this forum who own or have driven cars with the 6.75, believe it suits the car better, as did buyers of new Bentleys when they had a choice of Green or Red Label Arnages in their local Bentley agent's showroom.
I suppose it is a bit like the choice of saloon cars in the Bentley range today. After driving a Flying Spur Speed and a Mulsanne back to back shortly after the launch of the latter, I was left in no doubt as to which was the more accomplished car (Flying Spur), but I was also in no doubt as to which I would prefer to own (Mulsanne). My recollection is that when I did the same in 2000, my conclusion was not so ambiguous: the Red label was the winner on both counts. However, when I did the same exercise with the later incarnations of the Arnage, I was again split between the two: with my head, I would have opted for the Arnage R, but my heart definitely said T. In fact it positively shouted it!
Come to think of it, why don't you go for an Arnage T - it may be totally archaic and rather silly, but it is utterly magnificent, as a Bentley should be. They're not a lot more money than an Arnage Green / Red Label.
While I have considered changing my car for an Arnage, or a Continental R / T, or even a Continental GT / GTC, I'm still in love with my Turbo R after almost a decade of ownership and it really is a wole load of "bang for your bucks", so it is still here and probably will be for a very long time to come. However, variety is the spice of life, so I have just added something completely different (and even less sensible than an Arnage T) to my stable.
Edited by Bluebottle911 on Thursday 1st November 10:27
Edited by Bluebottle911 on Thursday 1st November 10:29
Bluebottle911 said:
Come to think of it, why don't you go for an Arnage T - it may be totally archaic and rather silly, but it is utterly magnificent, as a Bentley should be. They're not a lot more money than an Arnage Green / Red Label.
Absolutely - but then I realized that the post 2005 MY series with the revised headlights might be an even BETTER choice!I lusted after a Turbo R for many years & really wanted the 6.75L driving experience-low redline & massive torque, like a locomotive engine.
I've had lots of BMW's & the original 4L BMW V8 was a nice engine, although it was rev-happy & aggressive in the BMW cars.
The Bentley's huge, lazy, low-revving V8 is a very different driving experience from any other car I've ever owned-everything else seems to be powered by small, frantic, high-revving engines by comparison. The old 6.75L V8 offers instead that effortless 'Bentley Surge' when you open the fuel taps to it-all 8 of them in fact
The 6.75L engine is something you buy with your heart, not with logic or a mind on fuel economy & resale values etc. The big old pushrod V8 is an experience in it's own right. To quote one of Jeremy Clarkson's expressions, it's as mad-and as wonderful-as owning a pet elephant
My Turbo R drinks fuel like a fish & very little can match it's thirst for petrol-it's the last work in fuel-guzzling inefficiency & is a dinosaur of an engine compared to the more efficient BMW engines. But history would have been so boring had there been no dinosaurs to marvel at-I often open the huge bonent of my Turbo R just to gaze at that mighty engine
In the end it all comes down to personal choice, so you have to make the big decision for yourself-what do you want from your Bentley, as it's you who will be living with it?
I've had lots of BMW's & the original 4L BMW V8 was a nice engine, although it was rev-happy & aggressive in the BMW cars.
The Bentley's huge, lazy, low-revving V8 is a very different driving experience from any other car I've ever owned-everything else seems to be powered by small, frantic, high-revving engines by comparison. The old 6.75L V8 offers instead that effortless 'Bentley Surge' when you open the fuel taps to it-all 8 of them in fact
The 6.75L engine is something you buy with your heart, not with logic or a mind on fuel economy & resale values etc. The big old pushrod V8 is an experience in it's own right. To quote one of Jeremy Clarkson's expressions, it's as mad-and as wonderful-as owning a pet elephant
My Turbo R drinks fuel like a fish & very little can match it's thirst for petrol-it's the last work in fuel-guzzling inefficiency & is a dinosaur of an engine compared to the more efficient BMW engines. But history would have been so boring had there been no dinosaurs to marvel at-I often open the huge bonent of my Turbo R just to gaze at that mighty engine
In the end it all comes down to personal choice, so you have to make the big decision for yourself-what do you want from your Bentley, as it's you who will be living with it?
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