The Rover is dead. Long live the Rover!
Discussion
Sporting Bear said:
What's a spanner ?
Email me, I've got some things on next week (mostly car related would you believe) but I could spare you some time to show you how useless I am, what little I know (that wouldn't take long)
Got to go to Lubenham for MORE parts myself
Email me, I've got some things on next week (mostly car related would you believe) but I could spare you some time to show you how useless I am, what little I know (that wouldn't take long)
Got to go to Lubenham for MORE parts myself
YHM
Lubenham is where Benny lives - Usually!
A quick update in case anyone is interested:
I didn't manage to get as much done today as I would have liked due to trying to get some parts washer fluid and having to take visitors to the airport.
After struggling to disconnect the exhaust manifolds (16 bolts & most of them damn awkward!), I did manage to get one of the cylinder heads off:
14 bolts per head
Doesn't look like its this one that was leaking though:
Here's what came out of the inside of the Rocker Covers and although there is a bit of gasket, most of it is carbon from the burnt oil. It is in a 1 litre tub:
Tomorrow I take the second head off and start the clean up.
It really is a pain trying to work with no garage and no workshop.
I rang one of my Scottish P5 buddies who has stripped several engines and he reckons that the carbon build up is normal.
There is quite some wear on the tappets though as they are quite dished.
I need to decide how far I am going to take this in terms of refurb/improvement.
As always, all input is appreciated
I didn't manage to get as much done today as I would have liked due to trying to get some parts washer fluid and having to take visitors to the airport.
After struggling to disconnect the exhaust manifolds (16 bolts & most of them damn awkward!), I did manage to get one of the cylinder heads off:
14 bolts per head
Doesn't look like its this one that was leaking though:
Here's what came out of the inside of the Rocker Covers and although there is a bit of gasket, most of it is carbon from the burnt oil. It is in a 1 litre tub:
Tomorrow I take the second head off and start the clean up.
It really is a pain trying to work with no garage and no workshop.
I rang one of my Scottish P5 buddies who has stripped several engines and he reckons that the carbon build up is normal.
There is quite some wear on the tappets though as they are quite dished.
I need to decide how far I am going to take this in terms of refurb/improvement.
As always, all input is appreciated
Edited by tyre_tread on Sunday 18th February 21:51
Well done Alan (you wait 'till you have to do the manifold bolts on the Tiv 
)... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in?
Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
)... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in? Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
pupp said:
Well done Alan (you wait 'till you have to do the manifold bolts on the Tiv )... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in?
Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
)... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in? Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
Thanks Gary, I must admit to being a bit scared at times but then I figured what the hell, worst case scenario is a new engine which i had already considered as an option.
I haven't had any time really to exmaine the bores as it was cold and dark when the first head came off. I did run a fingernail down the top of one of the cylinders and there was no discernable ridge but I'll have a better look tomorrow.
After I posted the last message I did nip out for another look and noticed that the rearmost piston head (hey, pistonhead
) is clean whereas the others are black and so I lifted the gasket and I think that was the one that was leaking. The tappets are dished on the cam lobes. I hadn't really thought about a replacement cam until earlier today when I spoke to my Scottish buddy. It's an option along with an upgraded oil pump and poss a new dizzy.
I must admit I had forgotten the trick of filling the head with petrol/parafin to test the valve seats. I can always grind them in if needs be. Bit of a bummer with 16 of them though.
What I really need is the benefit of experience which is why I appreciate your (and others) input as although I've done lots of repairs I haven't stripped that many engines so judging what is good or bad is the key.
I am contemplating fitting SD1 heads as a possible upgrade but I don't want to make any firm decisions until I know the full extent of the damage.
If you fancy popping over (on your way home?) one evening to have a look and talk it over it would be much appreciated.
More pics tomorrow if I get some more done.
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:28
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:30
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:31
tyre_tread said:
pupp said:
Well done Alan (you wait 'till you have to do the manifold bolts on the Tiv )... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in?
Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
)... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in? Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
Thanks Gary, I must admit to being a bit scared at times but then I figured what the hell, worst case scenario is a new engine which i had already considered as an option.
I haven't had any time really to exmaine the bores as it was cold and dark when the first head came off. I did run a fingernail down the top of one of the cylinders and there was no discernable ridge but I'll have a better look tomorrow.
After I posted the last message I did nip out for another look and noticed that the rearmost piston head (hey, pistonhead
) is clean whereas the others are black and so I lifted the gasket and I think that was the one that was leaking. The tappets are dished on the cam lobes. I hadn't really thought about a replacement cam until earlier today when I spoke to my Scottish buddy. It's an option along with an upgraded oil pump and poss a new dizzy.
I must admit I had forgotten the trick of filling the head with petrol/parafin to test the valve seats. I can always grind them in if needs be. Bit of a bummer with 16 of them though.
What I really need is the benefit of experience which is why I appreciate your (and others) input as although I've done lots of repairs I haven't stripped that many engines so judging what is good or bad is the key.
I am contemplating fitting SD1 heads as a possible upgrade but I don't want to make any firm decisions until I know the full extent of the damage.
If you fancy popping over (on your way home?) one evening to have a look and talk it over it would be much appreciated.
More pics tomorrow if I get some more done.
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:28
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:30
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:31
Sure, I'll happily have a squint one evening.
The wear ridges you're looking for will be on the thrust faces of the bores (ie in line with the rod throw direction) and can be a good indicator of excessive wear if you haven't got access to a bore gauge/internal mic. Dont be thrown by the little ring of coke that will have formed in the area just above the top ring at TDC, that will be pretty hard baked.
If one crown is 'washed' clean then yep, that's an indicator of possible coolant ingress and the ports that end do appear to be rather lighter in colour that also indicates something going on although it's not unusual for one or more cylinders to be leaner than others. It may be that failure at that end is typical and both sides could be affected when you get the head off.
If the tappets are 'dished' on the following faces, that will mean the cam is shot. The cam lobes are actually ground slightly on the squint from 'new' to encourage tappet rotation and oil penetration, so dishing indicates considerable wear on both surfaces.
Unless you really want to change the running characteristics of the car, I'd maybe not be in too much of a hurry to 'upgrade' heads etc... chances are the originals are quite useable even if not 'pristine'. Unless the solvent pees by, I'd even be tempted to leave the valves alone (unless you plump for the full rebuild route). Chances are, you'll only reveal saggy springs, ovaled guides and hammered seats if you look too closely... but is any of that fatal to a soft tuned occasional driver if the valves are sealing ok?
Nowt to be fearful of mate... keep going!
Today I managed to set some parts washer fluid, took the second head off the car and started the clean up process on the heads and rockers:
Here is the photo taken down the left bank :
And the right:
And the left head:
The right hand (rearmost) of the left bank (close to the Gaza strip?) is noticeably cleaner on the crown as I mentioned in yesterday's posting and coupled with a close up view of the head from that cylinder I noticed that there is no carbon build up on the valves:
Leaky cylinder:
Wheras all of the other cylinders have carbon build up on the valves:
And then I noticed the evidence of a dark patch on the suspected leaky cylinder between the edge of the cylnder and the water jacket. This is also confirmed by the picture of the block showing leakage in the same place.
No doubt now in my mind where the leak was.
The gaskets arrived today:
I'm still unsure whether to go for the RPi replacement heads as it will negate the need to strip the existing heads . I did the leak test on the existing heads to see if the valves were leaking and they're not but I will need to remove the valves to check the condition of the stems, clean them up, remove all of the carbon, regrind them and I still have to check the rocker shafts for wear (although I'm not sure how to do this)
So, my thinking at the moment is:
Clean up the block as best as I can - Drain oil - use gunk to clean valley and them remove sump for a thorough clean up and ensure pick up pipe is clear.
Replace heads with RPi new heads (SD1) with the advantage of being unleaded compatible and slightly larger valves. No worries on rocker shaft etc.
Replace lifters and rods (but not cam)
Replace water pump (just in case!)
The rocker covers will be powder coated while they are off along with the air filter elbows, carb stubs & thermostat housing. Additionally the inlet manifold will be thoroughly cleaned and the exhause manifolds shot blasted & painted. I'll also do some clean up in teh engine bay area while some of the engine & ancillieries are out of the way.
Oh, I also need to sort the alternator as the bearing is noisy. I'll probably upgrade it!
Here is the photo taken down the left bank :
And the right:
And the left head:
The right hand (rearmost) of the left bank (close to the Gaza strip?
) is noticeably cleaner on the crown as I mentioned in yesterday's posting and coupled with a close up view of the head from that cylinder I noticed that there is no carbon build up on the valves: Leaky cylinder:
Wheras all of the other cylinders have carbon build up on the valves:
And then I noticed the evidence of a dark patch on the suspected leaky cylinder between the edge of the cylnder and the water jacket. This is also confirmed by the picture of the block showing leakage in the same place.
No doubt now in my mind where the leak was.
The gaskets arrived today:
I'm still unsure whether to go for the RPi replacement heads as it will negate the need to strip the existing heads . I did the leak test on the existing heads to see if the valves were leaking and they're not but I will need to remove the valves to check the condition of the stems, clean them up, remove all of the carbon, regrind them and I still have to check the rocker shafts for wear (although I'm not sure how to do this)
So, my thinking at the moment is:
Clean up the block as best as I can - Drain oil - use gunk to clean valley and them remove sump for a thorough clean up and ensure pick up pipe is clear.
Replace heads with RPi new heads (SD1) with the advantage of being unleaded compatible and slightly larger valves. No worries on rocker shaft etc.
Replace lifters and rods (but not cam)
Replace water pump (just in case!)
The rocker covers will be powder coated while they are off along with the air filter elbows, carb stubs & thermostat housing. Additionally the inlet manifold will be thoroughly cleaned and the exhause manifolds shot blasted & painted. I'll also do some clean up in teh engine bay area while some of the engine & ancillieries are out of the way.
Oh, I also need to sort the alternator as the bearing is noisy. I'll probably upgrade it!
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 22:08
Edited by tyre_tread on Tuesday 20th February 09:18
I suppose I am trying to avoid doing the cam as it is a lot more involved, in time, commitment and money, than I was prepared for.
I have spent the majority of today taking off the exhaust manifolds, stripping the inlet manifold, clenaing crud from the engine bay and labeling and bozing the small parts.
I am about to go out and get some copper washers (sump plug) and some nitrile based disposable gloves as my hands are shot from the cleaning fluid.
I have arranged for the inlet manifold to be chemically cleaned, the exhast manifolds to be shot blasted prior to painting and the inlet elbows, rocker covers and carb unions to be cleanerd & powder coated. My buddy at Aston Eng has said he'll get them done at cost for me.
I need to:
Clean up the engine
Investigate cost of rebuilding carbs
Decide whether to & cost changing the cam, followers and rods
Obtain carb gaskets
Order heads (id I am definitely going down that route
Clean up the rocker arms & check for wear.
sell the TVR! (its in the way)
I have spent the majority of today taking off the exhaust manifolds, stripping the inlet manifold, clenaing crud from the engine bay and labeling and bozing the small parts.
I am about to go out and get some copper washers (sump plug) and some nitrile based disposable gloves as my hands are shot from the cleaning fluid.
I have arranged for the inlet manifold to be chemically cleaned, the exhast manifolds to be shot blasted prior to painting and the inlet elbows, rocker covers and carb unions to be cleanerd & powder coated. My buddy at Aston Eng has said he'll get them done at cost for me.
I need to:
Clean up the engine
Investigate cost of rebuilding carbs
Decide whether to & cost changing the cam, followers and rods
Obtain carb gaskets
Order heads (id I am definitely going down that route
Clean up the rocker arms & check for wear.
sell the TVR! (its in the way)
Edited by tyre_tread on Tuesday 20th February 17:20
I'll ignore Mark's misquote for now and get him back tomorrow.
This evening has brought further bad news. I started to clean up and strip the rocker shafts and discovered substantial wear on the shafts as the oilways were badly, and in some cases completely blocked. You can't see it very well in the photo's but I put the calipers on the worn part and there is a >10 thou wear groove.
I then took an inlet and exhaust valve out. Aren't they supposed to be the same shape? Bet you can't guess which is the exhaust valve?
I need to add rockers and shafts into the equation!
A pricing I will go - RPI here I come again!
This evening has brought further bad news. I started to clean up and strip the rocker shafts and discovered substantial wear on the shafts as the oilways were badly, and in some cases completely blocked. You can't see it very well in the photo's but I put the calipers on the worn part and there is a >10 thou wear groove.
I then took an inlet and exhaust valve out. Aren't they supposed to be the same shape? Bet you can't guess which is the exhaust valve?
I need to add rockers and shafts into the equation!
A pricing I will go - RPI here I come again!
Can I suggest something dumb? If you were happy with the way it was running before the HGF why not clean everything up properly and just screw it back together with the new gaskets, assuming the heads are flat. I take it you are not looking for performance from the old girl and if she was not using gallons of oil or only running on 1/2 the cylinders why not make it sevicable until you can sort out your costings and options? Having oil going to all the right places will be a good startI take it a set of gaskets isn't to much so it is your time really. There is always a temptation to do a full restoration but you may well find you end up rebuilding the whole drivetrain as a better engine will just show up all the weaker parts of the whole.
I take it a set of gaskets isn't to much so it is your time really. There is always a temptation to do a full restoration but you may well find you end up rebuilding the whole drivetrain as a better engine will just show up all the weaker parts of the whole.tonyvid said:
Can I suggest something dumb? If you were happy with the way it was running before the HGF why not clean everything up properly and just screw it back together with the new gaskets, assuming the heads are flat. I take it you are not looking for performance from the old girl and if she was not using gallons of oil or only running on 1/2 the cylinders why not make it sevicable until you can sort out your costings and options? Having oil going to all the right places will be a good startI take it a set of gaskets isn't to much so it is your time really. There is always a temptation to do a full restoration but you may well find you end up rebuilding the whole drivetrain as a better engine will just show up all the weaker parts of the whole.
I take it a set of gaskets isn't to much so it is your time really. There is always a temptation to do a full restoration but you may well find you end up rebuilding the whole drivetrain as a better engine will just show up all the weaker parts of the whole.The very same thought crossed my mind.
mark r skinner said:
tonyvid said:
Can I suggest something dumb? If you were happy with the way it was running before the HGF why not clean everything up properly and just screw it back together with the new gaskets, assuming the heads are flat. I take it you are not looking for performance from the old girl and if she was not using gallons of oil or only running on 1/2 the cylinders why not make it sevicable until you can sort out your costings and options? Having oil going to all the right places will be a good startI take it a set of gaskets isn't to much so it is your time really. There is always a temptation to do a full restoration but you may well find you end up rebuilding the whole drivetrain as a better engine will just show up all the weaker parts of the whole.
I take it a set of gaskets isn't to much so it is your time really. There is always a temptation to do a full restoration but you may well find you end up rebuilding the whole drivetrain as a better engine will just show up all the weaker parts of the whole.The very same thought crossed my mind.
I refer the honourable gentlemen to:-
pupp said:
Unless you really want to change the running characteristics of the car, I'd maybe not be in too much of a hurry to 'upgrade' heads etc... chances are the originals are quite useable even if not 'pristine'. Unless the solvent pees by, I'd even be tempted to leave the valves alone (unless you plump for the full rebuild route). Chances are, you'll only reveal saggy springs, ovaled guides and hammered seats if you look too closely... but is any of that fatal to a soft tuned occasional driver if the valves are sealing ok?
Must confess I'm a firm believer in either doing it all, or just doing the bare minimum. 25+ years of playing with oily bits (oo'er) has long since taught me that mid-way refurbs are rearely satisfying. It's either a case of kicking yourself for not just doing the extra, or kicking yourself for wasting money doing more than you really needed to for the same overall result. Having said that, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' approach and if you achieve what you set out to do, that's a result in itself. Be nice to see the old thing running again without the steam show, whatever
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