The Rover is dead. Long live the Rover!
Discussion
I received the head gasket test kit from Frost on Friday so I used it on the Rover earlier today.
If the fluid turns from a purple colour to yellow then the head gasket has blown (or at least one in the case of the V8!) Any chance that my eyes are deceiving me or is there a difference in colour between the original fluid in the bottle on the right and that in the tube on the left?
The question now is whether just to take it apart and see what is the damage or, as I know the original engine is not in the best shape, whether to go for a complete new engine.
Answers on a postcard..........
Next stop is the RPI website!
If the fluid turns from a purple colour to yellow then the head gasket has blown (or at least one in the case of the V8!) Any chance that my eyes are deceiving me or is there a difference in colour between the original fluid in the bottle on the right and that in the tube on the left?
The question now is whether just to take it apart and see what is the damage or, as I know the original engine is not in the best shape, whether to go for a complete new engine.
Answers on a postcard..........
Next stop is the RPI website!
justinbaker said:
Alan, The best approach might be to hold a hose on the inlet pipe of the engine, and flush through both the radiator, then the engine. In the case of the head gasket reporting OK, could it be a cracked liner, rather than the "squidged bit". But either way heads have to come off.
I would get a good 3.9 engine, and rebuild it, not for power, just make a nice job, you can always restrict it.
Shame old Benson has a bit of a cold, I am rather fond of the old bit of tin.
Iff you like I will take some folding stuff out of the bank and hand it to you, just park it on my drive eh!!!
I would get a good 3.9 engine, and rebuild it, not for power, just make a nice job, you can always restrict it.
Shame old Benson has a bit of a cold, I am rather fond of the old bit of tin.
Iff you like I will take some folding stuff out of the bank and hand it to you, just park it on my drive eh!!!
For now I want to get the old boy back on the road and then I can do a proper job once the garage is built.
I do fancy doing the 3.9 rebuild route but not sure I have the confidence. Fancy giving me a hand?
Oh dear!
I managed to get as far as removing the ancillieries and rocker cover and valley gasket. What a mess. I am surprised the old boy was running so well.
There's certainly a lot of cooking been going on.
Before I started - It already looks messy where the water has been sprayed around from the over heating
Once I had disconnected all of the ancillieries and the inlet manifold it looked like this:
I took one of the rocker covers off and found this
Then I took a look inside the rocker cover and
A closer look revelaed how badly it is caked with dried out emulsified oil.
and undneath the valley gasket just made my heart sink.
I am at a real low ebb now and cannot believe just how bad it looks.
I was running out of daylight and just didn't have the heart to remove the heads. I'm not even sure its worth removing the heads. I suspect the engine is scrap anyway!
Now I REALLY need a morale boost!
Thoughts guys?
I managed to get as far as removing the ancillieries and rocker cover and valley gasket. What a mess. I am surprised the old boy was running so well.
There's certainly a lot of cooking been going on.
Before I started - It already looks messy where the water has been sprayed around from the over heating
Once I had disconnected all of the ancillieries and the inlet manifold it looked like this:
I took one of the rocker covers off and found this
Then I took a look inside the rocker cover and
A closer look revelaed how badly it is caked with dried out emulsified oil.
and undneath the valley gasket just made my heart sink.
I am at a real low ebb now and cannot believe just how bad it looks.
I was running out of daylight and just didn't have the heart to remove the heads. I'm not even sure its worth removing the heads. I suspect the engine is scrap anyway!
Now I REALLY need a morale boost!
Thoughts guys?
Edited by tyre_tread on Saturday 17th February 17:14
Thanks Mark.
I might delete them as it is quite upsetting.
I'm trying to get hold of JB at the mo as I think he might be bale to offer me some support and advice. Besides, he'll know the best place to be able to get some fluid for my parts washer which I am DEFINITELY foing to need over the coming days!
I might delete them as it is quite upsetting.
I'm trying to get hold of JB at the mo as I think he might be bale to offer me some support and advice. Besides, he'll know the best place to be able to get some fluid for my parts washer which I am DEFINITELY foing to need over the coming days!
Sporting Bear said:
tyre_tread said:
Nigel, what are you up to next week 
I'm on Spokey's run
Email me if you think I can help you with anything (help, me, = desperate you)
And here's me thinking you are handy with a spanner?
All support is good, even just assisting in lifting the bonnet, sucking air through teeth & slowly shaking head from side to side in a sympathetic manner.
Sporting Bear said:
What's a spanner ?
Email me, I've got some things on next week (mostly car related would you believe) but I could spare you some time to show you how useless I am, what little I know (that wouldn't take long)
Got to go to Lubenham for MORE parts myself
Email me, I've got some things on next week (mostly car related would you believe) but I could spare you some time to show you how useless I am, what little I know (that wouldn't take long)
Got to go to Lubenham for MORE parts myself
YHM
Lubenham is where Benny lives - Usually!
A quick update in case anyone is interested:
I didn't manage to get as much done today as I would have liked due to trying to get some parts washer fluid and having to take visitors to the airport.
After struggling to disconnect the exhaust manifolds (16 bolts & most of them damn awkward!), I did manage to get one of the cylinder heads off:
14 bolts per head
Doesn't look like its this one that was leaking though:
Here's what came out of the inside of the Rocker Covers and although there is a bit of gasket, most of it is carbon from the burnt oil. It is in a 1 litre tub:
Tomorrow I take the second head off and start the clean up.
It really is a pain trying to work with no garage and no workshop.
I rang one of my Scottish P5 buddies who has stripped several engines and he reckons that the carbon build up is normal.
There is quite some wear on the tappets though as they are quite dished.
I need to decide how far I am going to take this in terms of refurb/improvement.
As always, all input is appreciated
I didn't manage to get as much done today as I would have liked due to trying to get some parts washer fluid and having to take visitors to the airport.
After struggling to disconnect the exhaust manifolds (16 bolts & most of them damn awkward!), I did manage to get one of the cylinder heads off:
14 bolts per head
Doesn't look like its this one that was leaking though:
Here's what came out of the inside of the Rocker Covers and although there is a bit of gasket, most of it is carbon from the burnt oil. It is in a 1 litre tub:
Tomorrow I take the second head off and start the clean up.
It really is a pain trying to work with no garage and no workshop.
I rang one of my Scottish P5 buddies who has stripped several engines and he reckons that the carbon build up is normal.
There is quite some wear on the tappets though as they are quite dished.
I need to decide how far I am going to take this in terms of refurb/improvement.
As always, all input is appreciated
Edited by tyre_tread on Sunday 18th February 21:51
pupp said:
Well done Alan (you wait 'till you have to do the manifold bolts on the Tiv 
)... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in?
Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
)... what are the bores like? Can you feel any ridges just below the deck (about at TDC height)..? it almost looks like there are still hone marks evident in the pics, which is remarkable, if so! Maybe don't do too much labour intensive cleaning until you get the other head off... if the seal looks intact there too, then the block might well be suspect for porosity or the liners could be moving (neither unheard of). When you say the tappets are dished, do you mean on the pushrod side or where in contact with the cam lobes? Be helpful to have a shot of the running faces of the tappets as a lot can be told from the colour/wear patterns there. Have you planned to drop a cam and chain/sprockets in? Interesting you mention the 14 head fasteners... on the later motors the outer ones are not used as they pull the head out of true and induce gasket failure. Not so much an issue with the 'softer' motors but became an issue as temperatures and pressures increased in the chase for increasing power.
The valves seem a pretty good colour and the chambers/ports are not too coked up from what can be seen... what's it like up by the guides from the port side? If you dribble some petrol or paraffin into the chambers with the heads inverted, you'll get an idea how well the valves/seats are sealing.
Thanks Gary, I must admit to being a bit scared at times but then I figured what the hell, worst case scenario is a new engine which i had already considered as an option.
I haven't had any time really to exmaine the bores as it was cold and dark when the first head came off. I did run a fingernail down the top of one of the cylinders and there was no discernable ridge but I'll have a better look tomorrow.
After I posted the last message I did nip out for another look and noticed that the rearmost piston head (hey, pistonhead
) is clean whereas the others are black and so I lifted the gasket and I think that was the one that was leaking. The tappets are dished on the cam lobes. I hadn't really thought about a replacement cam until earlier today when I spoke to my Scottish buddy. It's an option along with an upgraded oil pump and poss a new dizzy.
I must admit I had forgotten the trick of filling the head with petrol/parafin to test the valve seats. I can always grind them in if needs be. Bit of a bummer with 16 of them though.
What I really need is the benefit of experience which is why I appreciate your (and others) input as although I've done lots of repairs I haven't stripped that many engines so judging what is good or bad is the key.
I am contemplating fitting SD1 heads as a possible upgrade but I don't want to make any firm decisions until I know the full extent of the damage.
If you fancy popping over (on your way home?) one evening to have a look and talk it over it would be much appreciated.
More pics tomorrow if I get some more done.
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:28
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:30
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 00:31
Today I managed to set some parts washer fluid, took the second head off the car and started the clean up process on the heads and rockers:
Here is the photo taken down the left bank :
And the right:
And the left head:
The right hand (rearmost) of the left bank (close to the Gaza strip?) is noticeably cleaner on the crown as I mentioned in yesterday's posting and coupled with a close up view of the head from that cylinder I noticed that there is no carbon build up on the valves:
Leaky cylinder:
Wheras all of the other cylinders have carbon build up on the valves:
And then I noticed the evidence of a dark patch on the suspected leaky cylinder between the edge of the cylnder and the water jacket. This is also confirmed by the picture of the block showing leakage in the same place.
No doubt now in my mind where the leak was.
The gaskets arrived today:
I'm still unsure whether to go for the RPi replacement heads as it will negate the need to strip the existing heads . I did the leak test on the existing heads to see if the valves were leaking and they're not but I will need to remove the valves to check the condition of the stems, clean them up, remove all of the carbon, regrind them and I still have to check the rocker shafts for wear (although I'm not sure how to do this)
So, my thinking at the moment is:
Clean up the block as best as I can - Drain oil - use gunk to clean valley and them remove sump for a thorough clean up and ensure pick up pipe is clear.
Replace heads with RPi new heads (SD1) with the advantage of being unleaded compatible and slightly larger valves. No worries on rocker shaft etc.
Replace lifters and rods (but not cam)
Replace water pump (just in case!)
The rocker covers will be powder coated while they are off along with the air filter elbows, carb stubs & thermostat housing. Additionally the inlet manifold will be thoroughly cleaned and the exhause manifolds shot blasted & painted. I'll also do some clean up in teh engine bay area while some of the engine & ancillieries are out of the way.
Oh, I also need to sort the alternator as the bearing is noisy. I'll probably upgrade it!
Here is the photo taken down the left bank :
And the right:
And the left head:
The right hand (rearmost) of the left bank (close to the Gaza strip?
) is noticeably cleaner on the crown as I mentioned in yesterday's posting and coupled with a close up view of the head from that cylinder I noticed that there is no carbon build up on the valves: Leaky cylinder:
Wheras all of the other cylinders have carbon build up on the valves:
And then I noticed the evidence of a dark patch on the suspected leaky cylinder between the edge of the cylnder and the water jacket. This is also confirmed by the picture of the block showing leakage in the same place.
No doubt now in my mind where the leak was.
The gaskets arrived today:
I'm still unsure whether to go for the RPi replacement heads as it will negate the need to strip the existing heads . I did the leak test on the existing heads to see if the valves were leaking and they're not but I will need to remove the valves to check the condition of the stems, clean them up, remove all of the carbon, regrind them and I still have to check the rocker shafts for wear (although I'm not sure how to do this)
So, my thinking at the moment is:
Clean up the block as best as I can - Drain oil - use gunk to clean valley and them remove sump for a thorough clean up and ensure pick up pipe is clear.
Replace heads with RPi new heads (SD1) with the advantage of being unleaded compatible and slightly larger valves. No worries on rocker shaft etc.
Replace lifters and rods (but not cam)
Replace water pump (just in case!)
The rocker covers will be powder coated while they are off along with the air filter elbows, carb stubs & thermostat housing. Additionally the inlet manifold will be thoroughly cleaned and the exhause manifolds shot blasted & painted. I'll also do some clean up in teh engine bay area while some of the engine & ancillieries are out of the way.
Oh, I also need to sort the alternator as the bearing is noisy. I'll probably upgrade it!
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 19th February 22:08
Edited by tyre_tread on Tuesday 20th February 09:18
I suppose I am trying to avoid doing the cam as it is a lot more involved, in time, commitment and money, than I was prepared for.
I have spent the majority of today taking off the exhaust manifolds, stripping the inlet manifold, clenaing crud from the engine bay and labeling and bozing the small parts.
I am about to go out and get some copper washers (sump plug) and some nitrile based disposable gloves as my hands are shot from the cleaning fluid.
I have arranged for the inlet manifold to be chemically cleaned, the exhast manifolds to be shot blasted prior to painting and the inlet elbows, rocker covers and carb unions to be cleanerd & powder coated. My buddy at Aston Eng has said he'll get them done at cost for me.
I need to:
Clean up the engine
Investigate cost of rebuilding carbs
Decide whether to & cost changing the cam, followers and rods
Obtain carb gaskets
Order heads (id I am definitely going down that route
Clean up the rocker arms & check for wear.
sell the TVR! (its in the way)
I have spent the majority of today taking off the exhaust manifolds, stripping the inlet manifold, clenaing crud from the engine bay and labeling and bozing the small parts.
I am about to go out and get some copper washers (sump plug) and some nitrile based disposable gloves as my hands are shot from the cleaning fluid.
I have arranged for the inlet manifold to be chemically cleaned, the exhast manifolds to be shot blasted prior to painting and the inlet elbows, rocker covers and carb unions to be cleanerd & powder coated. My buddy at Aston Eng has said he'll get them done at cost for me.
I need to:
Clean up the engine
Investigate cost of rebuilding carbs
Decide whether to & cost changing the cam, followers and rods
Obtain carb gaskets
Order heads (id I am definitely going down that route
Clean up the rocker arms & check for wear.
sell the TVR! (its in the way)
Edited by tyre_tread on Tuesday 20th February 17:20
I'll ignore Mark's misquote for now and get him back tomorrow.
This evening has brought further bad news. I started to clean up and strip the rocker shafts and discovered substantial wear on the shafts as the oilways were badly, and in some cases completely blocked. You can't see it very well in the photo's but I put the calipers on the worn part and there is a >10 thou wear groove.
I then took an inlet and exhaust valve out. Aren't they supposed to be the same shape? Bet you can't guess which is the exhaust valve?
I need to add rockers and shafts into the equation!
A pricing I will go - RPI here I come again!
This evening has brought further bad news. I started to clean up and strip the rocker shafts and discovered substantial wear on the shafts as the oilways were badly, and in some cases completely blocked. You can't see it very well in the photo's but I put the calipers on the worn part and there is a >10 thou wear groove.
I then took an inlet and exhaust valve out. Aren't they supposed to be the same shape? Bet you can't guess which is the exhaust valve?
I need to add rockers and shafts into the equation!
A pricing I will go - RPI here I come again!
pupp said:
It's either a case of kicking yourself for not just doing the extra, or kicking yourself for wasting money doing more than you really needed to for the same overall result. Having said that, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' approach ..............
I have achieved no progress on the Rover today except to price up the parts to either build, upgrade or replace the engine.
I have achieved the realisation that I have reached a situation of paralysis by analysis. In other words, I still don't know what to do for the best.
However Pupp is spot on in the excerpt of his quote above.
Having heard about the size of the bill to replace the cams on a Cerbera the complete new P5B Engine sounds like a steal!
I will be at the trading post tomorrow and will bring along some oily bits to view and discuss. Perhaps we can have a mass debate?
tonyvid said:
tyre_tread said:
I have achieved the realisation that I have reached a situation of paralysis by analysis. In other words, I still don't know what to do for the best.
Perhaps we can have a mass debate?
The first bit, what a lovely expression
The second bit...
Tonyvid, you have a bad mind (well done)
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