The Golf Thread - 2016!

[Rosscow]

We play 5 club comps, and I'd normally choose hybrid, 6 iron, 9 iron, 60 wedge and putter.

4 club is tough - but I suppose it's course dependent.

We use our putters a lot, so I'd always choose it. And you need a decent wedge to get out of our pot bunkers!

[Rosscow]

And I would add Jim, quite often it's nicer to have a full wedge shot or 9 iron to the green, than one of those in between 50-90 yard shots.
Normally resulting in a poor shot because it's not something you practice very often.

[Rosscow]

SpeckledJim said:

We could certainly debate the reasonable 'cut-off' in handicap terms.

I'd suggest the average 18 handicapper is making, say, 24 mistakes a round, and maybe 6 ameliorating 'great shots' that lead to the 18 handicap.

Every golfer is different, but at that standard, I would say, on average, that their driver is contributing much more to the 24 mistakes than it is to the 6 'great shots' that power pars and birdies.

For most golfers, at the end of a round of golf it's hard to look back to a hole and say "if my drive had been 25 yards longer, I'd have saved a shot there." but you can usually find one (or ten) where you could say "that drive was a disaster. There was no way back from there".

Thing is, most mistakes around the course cost you 1 shot. But lots of mistakes with the driver off the tee cost 2 shots.

I would agree with Jim.

Although you might argue that someone is actually pretty consistent off the tee, but have a terrible short game and can't putt for toffee.

[Rosscow]

Alpinestars said:

SpeckledJim said:

Yes, there are of course golfers who get on well with their driver off a handicap in the 20's. They should carry on, secure in the knowledge of how special and rare they are!

Their playing partners should fire up their hybrids and catch them on the green!

If their playing partners play in the 20s, I'd suggest a hybrid from 230 yards ain't going to be on the green, and there's as much chance of hitting a poor shot as the other player hitting a poor driver.

It's about knowing your game and course management. Not hard and fast rules like don't play a driver. I'd go as far as to say that the most important thing is to play the game you've brought to the course - we all have off days with the driver, certain irons etc. recognise that every game is not going to be in the 70s/80s/90s, and manage the weaknesses and play to strengths.

The point Jim was making was to take a hybrid off the tee, get it in play and beat them because of your superior short game.

[Rosscow]

SpeckledJim said:

That's the challenge. To find the way to encapsulate or illustrate or demonstrate a non-intuitive truth.

Slow-in fast-out doesn't always seem the fastest way to race a car, but to get any good, a driver has to learn it at some point.

That leap in understanding that speed gained on the following straight is worth more than arriving later at the previous apex is similar to the revelation (when it occurs) that the long clubs are simply relatively boring methods of transportation to get you to the points on the golf course where the scoring happens.

Putting more emphasis on a long drive than a trusty 8 iron is thinking about the game the wrong way.

14 steady 5-woods down the middle takes 3500 yards off the golf course. Then there's only 3000 yards left, and you've got 58 shots left to play to scratch.

Would you fancy your chances on a 3,000 yard par 58? 'course you bloody would!

What a gift those 14 steady starts are, compared to the duffs, skies, cabbage and splash of the alternative.

Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!!

[Rosscow]

DuncanM said:

Rosscow said:

Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!!

Did he get the math wrong? 250 yard = longer than most people drive the ball!

~180-200 for a 5 wood imo.

I presume so! 3500 / 14 = 250 yards!

[Rosscow]

But Jim is still right.

What if you only hit 200 yards off the tee (non par 3 holes).

For my course (off the blues at 6340 yards and with 5 par 3's and an overall par of 70) that would mean 13 tee shots @ 200 = 2600 yards.

6340 - 2600 = 3740 yards left.

I'm going to allow myself 2 putts per hole.

That means I have 21 shots left to cover 18 approach shots at a total of 3740 yards = 178.0 yards per shot (albeit with 3 shots spare).

Take the putts into account and it isn't as easy as it sounds!

[Rosscow]

SpeckledJim said:

Now lets try the same task using the other strategy. I'll be generous to the player using driver, and give them a 300 yard drive.

14 drives. 6 are successful and so take 1,800 yards out of the course.

4 are ok. Call it 200 yards. Another 800 yards gone.

4 are disasters. 2 cost a shot chipping out sideways, and 2 are lost. 2 shots lost each.

So we are 3,800 yards down the road, at a cost of 20 shots.

52 shots left, to play to 10, over 2,700 yards.

36 putts gone s

So 16 shots remain, to reach 18 greens, at an average of 150 yards each.

Not gonna work, is it. And that was just 4 bad drives, for a very long hitter!

I like it! It's a great way of looking at the game.

Especially if you actually make it more like 260 yards, not 300......

[Rosscow]

DuncanM said:

Rosscow said:

I like it! It's a great way of looking at the game.

Especially if you actually make it more like 260 yards, not 300......

I love it, however I think the only people who will be willing to try it, will already be pretty good players (but with driving issues).

Rosscow, what's your HC these days? Fancy trying it?

I'm still off 15. Haven't played enough this year to get where I wanted to be (12) but that's life (and kids!).

However, I think you're right - people like me (pretty good but with driving issues ) would be willing to try it.

And I will! I haven't really used the driver at all this year, so have been relying on my 3 wood. Which is pretty good. But definite room for improvement.

[Rosscow]

Alpinestars said:

Rosscow said:

Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!!

Absolutely. The paradox is that a high handicapper is going to have a number of duffs off the tee regardless of what club is taken, and even if he/she manages say 200 yards on a par 4 which is high 300s, that leaves a long iron to the green. I agree that generally a non driver is likely to get you into less trouble off the tee, but it's not a nil sum game. The downside is a) having to keep anything off the tee safe, and b) having longer shots into the green which can also cause a lot of lost shots.

You mustn't forget that higher handicap players are going to have anything from 2 to 10 holes where they've got 2 shots.

They shouldn't be going for a 200 yard shot into the green - hit a 6 iron! If you're lucky you'll chip it close and get a par anyway.

They should be playing bogie golf.

[Rosscow]

Alpinestars said:

Chipping and putting is probably where most high handicappers lose most shots. So to take 1 or 2 shots more to get onto the green means an even higher score. I keep saying it's not about being prescriptive, but about knowing your game and being sensible.

What do you guys play off out of interest?

It's much easier to chip and putt better than it is to hit driver or 3 wood better, though.

As above, I play off 15 (it's a tough course - I'd like to think I'd be off 13 or 14 at a more standard parkland course).

Most of my costly shots are from the tee though.

[Rosscow]

Alpinestars said:

Rosscow said:

It's much easier to chip and putt better than it is to hit driver or 3 wood better, though.

As above, I play off 15 (it's a tough course - I'd like to think I'd be off 13 or 14 at a more standard parkland course).

Most of my costly shots are from the tee though.

You're not practicing what you preach . Take a long iron off the tee and you'll be down in no time.

I can count on 1 hand when I've hit driver this year! I do tend to go with 3 wood a lot, and fall back on my hybrid.

But you're right, I should do!

[Rosscow]

DuncanM said:

Alpinestars said:

Rosscow said:

Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!!

Absolutely. The paradox is that a high handicapper is going to have a number of duffs off the tee regardless of what club is taken, and even if he/she manages say 200 yards on a par 4 which is high 300s, that leaves a long iron to the green. I agree that generally a non driver is likely to get you into less trouble off the tee, but it's not a nil sum game. The downside is a) having to keep anything off the tee safe, and b) having longer shots into the green which can also cause a lot of lost shots.

Alpine is right, give 20+HC players 14 approach shots from 170+ yards and it ain't gonna be fun for them.

Jim is picturing himself (a good golfer) in this scenario, and it skews reality somewhat.

Remember though that Jim is talking about playing to 10. Stick an extra 14 shots on the allowance and it's not so daunting!

[Rosscow]

DuncanM said:

Rosscow said:

DuncanM said:

Alpinestars said:

Rosscow said:

Jim, you're a good golfer. Not many higher handicap players are going to hit fourteen straight 250 yard 5 woods!!

Absolutely. The paradox is that a high handicapper is going to have a number of duffs off the tee regardless of what club is taken, and even if he/she manages say 200 yards on a par 4 which is high 300s, that leaves a long iron to the green. I agree that generally a non driver is likely to get you into less trouble off the tee, but it's not a nil sum game. The downside is a) having to keep anything off the tee safe, and b) having longer shots into the green which can also cause a lot of lost shots.

Alpine is right, give 20+HC players 14 approach shots from 170+ yards and it ain't gonna be fun for them.

Jim is picturing himself (a good golfer) in this scenario, and it skews reality somewhat.

Remember though that Jim is talking about playing to 10. Stick an extra 14 shots on the allowance and it's not so daunting!

Give a 20HC 18 ~ 170yard par 3's to play and I reckon if they shoot better than 72 then they're doing well?

This spreadsheet golf only works if the high handicapper is a high handicapper almost purely because of their poor driving, which really isn't usually the case.

It actually has more value a bit further down the HC table, in fact our own Rosscow could probs get down to 10HC by being strict with this advice

I'm not saying I'm perfect - but I agree with Jim's philosophy

[Rosscow]

Alpinestars said:

For professionals, driving distance is an absolutely key factor. More so than accuracy.

I'm actually not sure about this comment.

We've seen all too often over last 5 years or so top players changing their swings to chase the distance.

Luke Donald - a fine, fine golfer who thought he had to be longer to compete. It's cost him the best part of 4 years of competing and now he's gone back to what he was doing.

Martin Kaymer - a superb golfer that naturally hits a fade. Decided he had to hit a draw to produce longer shots. All it did was ruin his game. Now gone back to his natural shot and is subsequently climbing the rankings again.

I personally know a European Tour player who is constantly in the top 25 of driving accuracy and driving distance (top 10 last season). He's not won a thing on Tour and may never do, because he is (in his own words) not good enough with his scoring clubs and irons.

Edited by Rosscow on Monday 22 August 15:37

[Rosscow]

Alpinestars said:

Here is some analysis which has been done on distance off the tee.

http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/news-and-events/gene...

That's rubbish.

The only thing they've looked at is driving accuracy. What about iron accuracy? Greens in regulation? Putting stats? Scrambling?

Chances are the 5 players that earned £19m are much better at a lot of other things as well driving, than the 5 players that earned £3m.

Their cumulative world ranking is 43 - compared to the other 5 at 1068!

[Rosscow]

Alpinestars said:

Read the whole article and then perhaps the next one I posted as well.

I will read these tonight and see if I can fathom out what they seem to be saying!

[Rosscow]

DuncanM said:

SpeckledJim said:

...How much of the motivation to crush a driver is because it will improve one's chances of a birdie (irrespective of what it does to one's chances of a double-bogey) and how much of it is just that it's great fun and it feels good letting the big dog eat.

Maybe that's the point, casual golfers who use crappy warbird balls, and shoot ~100, probably do care much more about letting the big dog eat, than they do about the score

Those crappy Warbird balls are there for a reason!

There's a member at our club who plays off of either 26 or 28 (can't remember which) and he plays with a bad slice, which he allow for by aiming 20 yards left of the fairway. He also hits the ball about 175 yards at most.

Yet he insists on playing Pro V1 balls! When I tried to explain to him that a soft, high spinning ball like a Pro V1 makes his 'shot shape' (I tried to not mention the word slice) worse, he wasn't having any of it.

A Warbird is exactly what he should be using!

[Rosscow]

If anyone has seen the terrible news from Camber Sands where 5 people have drowned, our golf course is literally the other side of the main sand dune that you can see.

Awful.

[Rosscow]

JamesNotJim said:

bodhi said:

came home in 79 for 36 points, coming second, which I suspect has got me vouchers for....American Golf

I want to be a member at your gaff.
I shot a +3 round on wednesday for 38 points. I came 8th....43points won. I'd have to shoot sub par to get 43 points.

Christ!!!! 38 points and you came 8th