Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
But the USADA evidence hasnt been heard?
Theyve made allegations - he's said hes fed up with all this - you can see from wikipedia hes been through it all before, with people alleging things then finding theres either little to back it up or contrary evidence.
If he was guilty of doping why didnt it show up in any tests at the time?
Thats how they deal with dopers in the Olympics
Theyve made allegations - he's said hes fed up with all this - you can see from wikipedia hes been through it all before, with people alleging things then finding theres either little to back it up or contrary evidence.
If he was guilty of doping why didnt it show up in any tests at the time?
Thats how they deal with dopers in the Olympics
saaby93 said:
But the USADA evidence hasnt been heard?
Theyve made allegations - he's said hes fed up with all this - you can see from wikipedia hes been through it all before, with people alleging things then finding theres either little to back it up or contrary evidence.
If he was guilty of doping why didnt it show up in any tests at the time?
Thats how they deal with dopers in the Olympics
Exactly. The USDA has made allegations but has proved nothing:Theyve made allegations - he's said hes fed up with all this - you can see from wikipedia hes been through it all before, with people alleging things then finding theres either little to back it up or contrary evidence.
If he was guilty of doping why didnt it show up in any tests at the time?
Thats how they deal with dopers in the Olympics
"In a statement USADA claimed it had clear evidence that Armstrong had taken performance-enhancing drugs.
It alleges he used banned substances, including the blood-booster erythropoietin (EPO), steroid and blood transfusions, as far back as 1996. "
So, USADA says they have evidence but never submitted in any court case to date. This has gone on for years with the numerous blood tests which have in the end all proved negative. The USADA are making themselves look very stupid indeed and playing straight into LA's hands.
saaby93 said:
But the USADA evidence hasnt been heard?
Not so far by the general public and only because Armstrong has refused to appear before the independent arbitration panel. He has been given every opportunity to contest it but has chosen not to.Armstrong and his team have seen the evidence against him. That's why he's quit.
Silver993tt said:
So, USADA says they have evidence but never submitted in any court case to date. This has gone on for years with the numerous blood tests which have in the end all proved negative. The USADA are making themselves look very stupid indeed and playing straight into LA's hands.
I'm not sure you understand what's going on. This is a federal case. He's already been charged with doping but has refused to appear and defend himself in the next stage which is before an arbitration panel, so the charge stands and he gets a ban and his tour victories almost certainly removed. USADA haven't made themselves look stupid, they've banned him and striped him of his tour victories. they've won and Armstrong has lost. He's now a charged doper with a lifetime ban. That's it over.
Still feels like someone having to prove their innocence to me
rather than presumption of innocence and facts proving guilt
We think you're guilty come to our umpteenth hearing to prove again youre innocent.
If we cant prove it this time we'll keep trying one more time until we do.
Enough, I need to get on with life
rather than presumption of innocence and facts proving guilt
We think you're guilty come to our umpteenth hearing to prove again youre innocent.
If we cant prove it this time we'll keep trying one more time until we do.
Enough, I need to get on with life
el stovey said:
I'm not sure you understand what's going on. This is a federal case. He's already been charged with doping but has refused to appear and defend himself in the next stage which is before an arbitration panel, so the charge stands and he gets a ban and his tour victories almost certainly removed.
USADA haven't made themselves look stupid, they've banned him and striped him of his tour victories. they've won and Armstrong has lost. He's now a charged doper with a lifetime ban. That's it over.
He hasn't been stripped of the TdF wins at all. USADA don't have the powers to do that and even you aren't sure of it as stated in your own post.USADA haven't made themselves look stupid, they've banned him and striped him of his tour victories. they've won and Armstrong has lost. He's now a charged doper with a lifetime ban. That's it over.
A hint of USADA's allegations were listed at the start of the USA Pro Challenge coverage on Eurosport earlier tonight. They sounded quite weak.
Essentially, in the late 90's he failed a test for corticosteroid but was able to produce a prescription to explain it. In the 00's a couple of blood tests gave results consistent with doping. And finally, there are at least 10 people who will testify against him.
Regardless, he was racing against plenty of dopers and consistently beat them. An Olympic gold with no failed test. He didn't exactly do badly on his return to the TdF after retirement either.
It's too early for me to say he's guilty, and even if he is, I think he has had a net positive effect on cycling.
Essentially, in the late 90's he failed a test for corticosteroid but was able to produce a prescription to explain it. In the 00's a couple of blood tests gave results consistent with doping. And finally, there are at least 10 people who will testify against him.
Regardless, he was racing against plenty of dopers and consistently beat them. An Olympic gold with no failed test. He didn't exactly do badly on his return to the TdF after retirement either.
It's too early for me to say he's guilty, and even if he is, I think he has had a net positive effect on cycling.
saaby93 said:
Still feels like someone having to prove their innocence to me
rather than presumption of innocence and facts proving guilt
We think you're guilty come to our umpteenth hearing to prove again youre innocent.
If we cant prove it this time we'll keep trying one more time until we do.
Enough, I need to get on with life
Except the court cases that they've fought have been at Armstrong's decision - after he decided not to recognise their authority.rather than presumption of innocence and facts proving guilt
We think you're guilty come to our umpteenth hearing to prove again youre innocent.
If we cant prove it this time we'll keep trying one more time until we do.
Enough, I need to get on with life
Now he's been told the system is entirely fair and legal, he's decided not to contest the punishment.
If he wanted the evidence heard, he could request to do so by going to an independant tribunal. He's chosen not to, so has accepted guilt for all charges.
It's like the FIA levying a fine on Vettel for massively cheating. They decide, and present a punishment. The individual/team can contest it legally and easily. In fact, it has much in common with Employment Law practice.
Silver993tt said:
He hasn't been stripped of the TdF wins at all. USADA don't have the powers to do that and even you aren't sure of it as stated in your own post.
It Sounds to me like he's been stripped of his jerseys. All the media are reporting he's lost his jerseys. I'm not sure what else to say really."The UCI notes Lance Armstrong’s decision not to proceed to arbitration in the case that USADA has brought against him.
The UCI recognises that USADA is reported as saying that it will strip Mr. Armstrong of all results from 1998 onwards in addition to imposing a lifetime ban from participating in any sport which recognises the World Anti-Doping Code.
Article 8.3 of the WADC states that where no hearing occurs the Anti-Doping Organisation with results management responsibility shall submit to the parties concerned (Mr Armstrong, WADA and UCI) a reasoned decision explaining the action taken.
As USADA has claimed jurisdiction in the case the UCI expects that it will issue a reasoned decision in accordance with Article 8.3 of the Code.
Until such time as USADA delivers this decision the UCI has no further comment to make."
saaby93 said:
Still feels like someone having to prove their innocence to me
rather than presumption of innocence and facts proving guilt
So the police investigate an offence of theft and have a prima facie case against a specific person. Lots of evidence including that of co-conspirators. The court issues a summons to the suspect but they fail to attend but state they are not going to challenge the evidence against them.rather than presumption of innocence and facts proving guilt
el stovey said:
Silver993tt said:
So, USADA says they have evidence but never submitted in any court case to date. This has gone on for years with the numerous blood tests which have in the end all proved negative. The USADA are making themselves look very stupid indeed and playing straight into LA's hands.
I'm not sure you understand what's going on. This is a federal case. He's already been charged with doping but has refused to appear and defend himself in the next stage which is before an arbitration panel, so the charge stands and he gets a ban and his tour victories almost certainly removed. USADA haven't made themselves look stupid, they've banned him and striped him of his tour victories. they've won and Armstrong has lost. He's now a charged doper with a lifetime ban. That's it over.
They have no authority. This is my point. They have no authority to do anything to him. They cant strip him of anything that the UCI has authority on.
This is what I dont understand. The USDA havent *prooved* anything. To anybody. Anywhere. There is no presented evidence. There is no proof. There is no smoking gun. There isnt even a cold bloody gun.
ALL that has been put into the spotlight is hearsay and circumstantial. Not a single iota of proof or evidence. It is just allegations so far. This is now being shouted as proof, evidence and a conviction!!
We are at allegation time only. I hope to God none of you lot ever serve on a jury! The USDA have made themselves look incredibly stupid. When a court case is won against him and someone shows some evidence in public that he's bang to right and the correct authority strips him, then he is a convicted doper and suffers material consequences. Right now, all that has happened is that a body without the authority to affect his achievements is making a lot of noise.
If this is the end though and there is no court case, nobody puts the proof before an appropriate authority and that said appropriate authority doesnt get to say Lance, yer guilty as sin, then bloody hell. I want to commit a crime against the USDA and say "bring it on boys
". I dont know what any of you boys do for a living, but I sure as hell know you dont work in PR or marketing!Sway said:
Except the court cases that they've fought have been at Armstrong's decision - after he decided not to recognise their authority.
Now he's been told the system is entirely fair and legal, he's decided not to contest the punishment.
If he wanted the evidence heard, he could request to do so by going to an independant tribunal. He's chosen not to, so has accepted guilt for all charges.
It's like the FIA levying a fine on Vettel for massively cheating. They decide, and present a punishment. The individual/team can contest it legally and easily. In fact, it has much in common with Employment Law practice.
I can understand thatNow he's been told the system is entirely fair and legal, he's decided not to contest the punishment.
If he wanted the evidence heard, he could request to do so by going to an independant tribunal. He's chosen not to, so has accepted guilt for all charges.
It's like the FIA levying a fine on Vettel for massively cheating. They decide, and present a punishment. The individual/team can contest it legally and easily. In fact, it has much in common with Employment Law practice.
But as he's no longer cycling a point comes when you think I cant waste any more of my life contesting these , it could go on forever - I have other things to do.
Derek Smith said:
So the police investigate an offence of theft and have a prima facie case against a specific person. Lots of evidence including that of co-conspirators. The court issues a summons to the suspect but they fail to attend but state they are not going to challenge the evidence against them.
Or, the police stop someone for drink driving, breathalyse them, get a positive and then take them to the station for a blood test which proves negative. This is repeated 10-15 times but always a negative blood test. Meanwhile a number of people say they saw the driver drinking in a pub before he got into his car. It will never fly in court because as above, many allegations but no concrete evidence.
Silver993tt said:
Derek Smith said:
So the police investigate an offence of theft and have a prima facie case against a specific person. Lots of evidence including that of co-conspirators. The court issues a summons to the suspect but they fail to attend but state they are not going to challenge the evidence against them.
Or, the police stop someone for drink driving, breathalyse them, get a positive and then take them to the station for a blood test which proves negative. This is repeated 10-15 times but always a negative blood test. Meanwhile a number of people say they saw the driver drinking in a pub before he got into his car. It will never fly in court because as above, many allegations but no concrete evidence.
JuniorD said:
I reckon there must be a whole lot of people on this thread who still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy.
I know. It's mental. Armstrong had his day in federal court and lost. Now he refused to turn up and defend himself in front of an independent arbitration panel so he's been charged. How can anyone think he's innocent?
el stovey said:
How can anyone think he's innocent?
It's not a matter of thatI'm presuming he's innocent until someone places a box file of guilt on the table
The wikipedia article seems to fairly stack both files and all we have is inconclusive
Therefore I leave him in the innocent camp
As I would anyone
saaby93 said:
t's not a matter of that
I'm presuming he's innocent until someone places a box file of guilt on the table
The wikipedia article seems to fairly stack both files and all we have is inconclusive
Therefore I leave him in the innocent camp
As I would anyone
Apologies for the bearing of bad tidings earlier, I'm not a cyclist but as a contributor to the golf thread, have seen this develop over the last few days.I'm presuming he's innocent until someone places a box file of guilt on the table
The wikipedia article seems to fairly stack both files and all we have is inconclusive
Therefore I leave him in the innocent camp
As I would anyone
In respect of Saaby's post, would it not be something similar to someone being charged with speeding, denying hte charge and taking it as far as a court hearing, but then offering "no contest" to the charge and being found guilty?
djstevec said:
In respect of Saaby's post, would it not be something similar to someone being charged with speeding, denying hte charge and taking it as far as a court hearing, but then offering "no contest" to the charge and being found guilty?
Yes, that's pretty much exactly what the situation is. And, from what I can gather, the UCI are acknowledging that the USADA has the authority to do what they're doing with respect to stripping him of his tdf titles.I'm sure there'll be more to come, whether between Armstrong and the USADA or the UCI and USADA, but for the time being, that appears to be the situation.
Armstrong has always used full attack mode against his accusers so for him to back down when all the evidence could have been aired in court tells you something!
Lance in full flow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgns7CXeUI
Lance in full flow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgns7CXeUI
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