The **BOXING** thread Vol 2

[johnxjsc1985]

I like Haye but isn't his problem Heavyweights are now real heavy and he is about 95kg whereas AJ is about 10 kilos heavier and 2 inches taller. I cant see him getting close to AJ.

[Fittster]

I really don't see why people rate Haye at Heavyweight. His fights at HW:

Dereck Chisora - Had lost 3 of his last 5 fights when Haye TKO'ed him in the 5th.
Wladimir Klitschko - Spent 12 rounds being unable to overcome Klitschko's jab, blamed it on a dodgy toe.
Audley Harrison - Say no more.
John Ruiz - Small HW, with lots of defeats on his records. Haye wins in the 9th
Nikolai Valuev - Circus freak
Monte Barrett - Journeyman intro to HW division

He's not that tall for a HW, although in his time off his bulked up a lot, adding 17lbs that appears to be muscle. If that muscle is what's required why didn't he have it previously? He's never going to be more powerful than the divisions big hitters so if he's swapping speed (which will be declining anyway at 35) for power it seems a bit risky.

I don't see a great HW CV, he's physically going to struggle to match up against natural HWs and at 35 times not on his side.

[MitchmachineUAE]

Haye at heavyweight. Speed + power his ability to run someone down for a finish as well. First person to stop Ruiz after knocking him over plenty of times during that fight, wobbled Valuev who had never felt anything like that shot before. He has plenty going for him, ok the Wlad fight was a total damp squib and fights against Harrison and Chisora were purely to maximize his retirement fund IMO.

Haye does have game at heavyweight level, his movement and power is enough to make people think twice about facing him. Would he beat AJ right now? I don't think he would but he certainly has the potential to cause him some discomfort during a match.

I thought AJ's handling of the post fight press conference was superb as well. Acknowledges that there will be public interest in Haye, Fury and himself all getting it on at some point and seems to relish the prospect. Very interesting times for British Heavyweight boxing though and the best bit is that they are all intriguing characters in their own right and have totally different styles.

[tuscaneer]

i think it's the shorter guys that can have the most effect sometimes. fury has only ever been on his arse by overhand rights chucked by short blokes.

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/iGYO16IHHrg17p2XY...

https://media.giphy.com/media/cMgZjHgPDbwu4/giphy....

i think haye can bang any one of them out if he is quick enough(yes) and bangs hard enough(yes)

exciting times ahead....everyone is talking like fury has already won the rematch....but what happens if wlad turns in a performance like he did against pulev!!??....

joshua looked so good on saturday but martin just froze. i can't believe how st he looked....i still want joshua to get some more miles on the clock before he fights fury/wlad/haye.....i still think povetkin should be a force. i feel unless something drastic happens in moscow you've got a real pain in the arse for all the top guys once he's got the wbc belt.....of course, wilder could catch him and stop him but i don't see him making the same mistakes as szpilka did......and he bangs a lot harder..just ask mike perez!

[Bring on the clowns]

Joshua could hurt and finish Haye, no doubt. He could probably stop any heavyweight if he caught them clean. But Haye could definitely stop Joshua too. So it would be down to who got the telling punch in first. With Haye's movement and experience and speed it could be him.

There are those in the trade who say Haye is the single biggest, most single-shot concussive, puncher in heavyweight boxing, even over Joshua.

Anyone who has seen all his fights and then dismisses his ability at hwt because of his opponent stack is missing something, imho.

[FredClogs]

Haye's got great power from movement and fast feet, AJ has just got straight 1,2 punching power, it's Ali vs Foreman. In fact I think AJ is from the same mold as foreman and for anyone to beat him they're going to need a diamond hard chin to tire him, but he is beatable, he's quite static and 5 rounds of avoiding the big right hand or soaking it up and I think AJ will become a quite an easy target.

Fury is going to have much harder job on in July, even though I backed him last time I think Vlad is going to be different this time. Vlad vs AJ would be a very tasty affair indeed.

[StuTheGrouch]

Imagine the conversation we would be having if Haye vs Fury happened. One of them would not be being mentioned right now.

At the moment I would bet on AJ against most, but anything can happen at this weight.

[Yiliterate]

tuscaneer said:

exciting times ahead....everyone is talking like fury has already won the rematch....but what happens if wlad turns in a performance like he did against pulev!!??....

FredClogs said:

Fury is going to have much harder job on in July, even though I backed him last time I think Vlad is going to be different this time. Vlad vs AJ would be a very tasty affair indeed.

Very much this ^. It's going to be fascinating to see what Wlad delivers in the re-match. Really wouldn't like to predict the winner at this stage but, as I see it, Wlad is still very much in the reckoning...

[johnxjsc1985]

Yiliterate said:

Very much this ^. It's going to be fascinating to see what Wlad delivers in the re-match. Really wouldn't like to predict the winner at this stage but, as I see it, Wlad is still very much in the reckoning...

If Wlad actually does try and hit Fury we might just get a fight but for some reason he offered nothing last time I just cant see that happening again.

[Yiliterate]

Interesting perspective on Saturday night's main event from Steve Bunce.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/boxing/...

Also, forgot to mention the other contest from the weekend that seems to have gone under the radar...Arthur Abraham losing his WBO Super-Middleweight world title in a complete scorecard shut-out. Haven't seen the fight but very surprised to see it so one-sided; can't recall there being any signs of an imminent slide of such magnitude when he fought Martin Murray late last year...

[lord trumpton]

johnxjsc1985 said:

Yiliterate said:

Very much this ^. It's going to be fascinating to see what Wlad delivers in the re-match. Really wouldn't like to predict the winner at this stage but, as I see it, Wlad is still very much in the reckoning...

If Wlad actually does try and hit Fury we might just get a fight but for some reason he offered nothing last time I just cant see that happening again.

I just think Vlad had suddenly become older and slower; his confidence will be lower too.

Fury on the other hand will be full of energy and will probably take Vlad out

[benm3evo]

Does anyone else think that Vlad V Fury could be a similar scenario to Froch V Groves where Froch possibly didn't train at 100% & take Groves as seriously as he should the first time round?

My money will be going on Vlad this time....but then my predictions aren't usually right!

[lionelf]

Albert Einstein once said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

Vlad will have to try something different this time and at the moment I don't know what that could possibly be whilst Fury will happily replay his tactics from first fight and expect a similar outcome. It's ALL on Vlad this time, what will he change that could make such a big difference to the outcome? He got absolutely nowhere near landing on Fury last time out.

[Yiliterate]

benm3evo said:

Does anyone else think that Vlad V Fury could be a similar scenario to Froch V Groves where Froch possibly didn't train at 100% & take Groves as seriously as he should the first time round?

My money will be going on Vlad this time....but then my predictions aren't usually right!

Personally, I'd rule out Wlad not training properly. I think meticulous preparation - at least physical preparation - is his hallmark and has never previously been in question since he returned to the position of world champion, despite there being many less-than-stellar opponents in that time. He just doesn't seem the type to cut corners or take it easy because of a perceived weaker opponent.

Underestimating Fury from a tactical or technical perspective is a different question though, and that could be the case. Or, quite possibly, he'd covered that side of things as well but when it came to putting the gameplan into practice, he just didn't have the tools to make it work. It happens. Although I wouldn't want to draw any direct comparisons, look at Floyd Mayweather jr - he hasn't remained undefeated because his opponents kept showing up out of shape or were taken by surprise by how he fought...pretty much all of his opponents were well aware of what the puzzle was; it's just nobody was able to solve it!


ETA - in terms of what I've said about physical preparation, obviously if he were carrying an injury, that would be something different...

Edited by Yiliterate on Tuesday 12th April 13:54

[FredClogs]

Yiliterate said:

Personally, I'd rule out Wlad not training properly. I think meticulous preparation - at least physical preparation - is his hallmark and has never previous been in question since he returned to the position of world champion, despite there being many less-than-stellar opponents in that time. He just doesn't seem the type to cut corners or take it easy because of a perceived weaker opponent.

Underestimating Fury from a tactical or technical perspective is a different question though, and that could be the case. Or, quite possibly, he'd covered that side of things as well but when it came to putting the gameplan into practice, he just didn't have the tools to make it work. It happens. Although I wouldn't want to draw any direct comparisons, look at Floyd Mayweather jr - he hasn't remained undefeated because his opponents kept showing up out of shape or were taken by surprise by how he fought...pretty much all of his opponents were well aware of what the puzzle was; it's just nobody was able to solve it!


ETA - in terms of what I've said about physical preparation, obviously if he were carrying an injury, that would be something different...

Edited by Yiliterate on Tuesday 12th April 13:34

Here's what I think happened first time around, Vlad underestimated the advantage Fury's reach would give him and the ability of Fury to go 12 at a pace with such movement. I genuinely think he was expecting Fury to tire in the second half of the fight, then the last 3, then only in round 12 did it dawn on Vlad that Fury may not look like him or AJ, but he is a very fit athlete who could probably have done 24 rounds at that pace, probably 36. I also think Fury got to Vlad mentally a bit but he'll never admit that and I think the mind games are overplayed. I also don't think Vlad has much tactical game plan other than go in there super fit and strong and 1,2, left hook the guy to death... Fury said that all the way through the build up and I think it's true, Vlad is excellent at what he does but he's been doing it a long time now and is probably over confident in it's ability to win against everyone, especially a 6ft7 guy who can dance a bit.

This time I genuinely think Vlad will try to take Fury out early and obviously he has the tools and punches to do that, Fury is going to have to be double quick on his feet for the first 4 rounds and come in and hold and spoil on every slipped right hand to avoid that killer hook of Vlads - which he can do.

I want Fury to win, but this time I think Vlad is going to be in no mood for the holding and spoiling of Fury, he didn't like being beaten by his own game by someone bigger. Fury is going to have to be very disciplined and in front of a home crowd I think he'll have to show great restraint by not getting involved in a first or second round tear up - Fury will want to be known as a true Champ and that means knocking people out and being involved in the legendary fights not just being technically good at nullifying the other guys game by holding and leaning on - but against Vlad is not the time to try to show the world you're a warrior because Vlad is so composed in the heat of battle if it get's untidy (like rounds 11 and 12 last time) it's going to really suit Vlad.

[Robatr0n]

lionelf said:

Albert Einstein once said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

Vlad will have to try something different this time and at the moment I don't know what that could possibly be whilst Fury will happily replay his tactics from first fight and expect a similar outcome. It's ALL on Vlad this time, what will he change that could make such a big difference to the outcome? He got absolutely nowhere near landing on Fury last time out.

If I'm teaching you suck eggs, then I apologise.

Wladimir has not always been the same cautious fighter you see today. He used to be more than happy to walk his opponents down and let his hands go but this was early in his career and before Steward got ahold of him and taught him his craft. So if he were to turn back the clock 12/13 years or so (pretty sure Steward would only take on Klitschko after Lewis retired due to a conflict of interests) then that is the exact tactic to apply.

I don't think Fury hits anywhere near hard enough to bother Wlad so I think he just needs to throw caution to the wind and walk through those shots in order to land some leather of his own. It worked for him in the 12th round so who knows.

My biggest concern is Wlad's age. He may just not have enough left to be able to keep up with Fury's pace and movement from the opening round. Furthermore, if he does employ his tactic of old, he may find himself getting stopped late in the fight due to exhaustion.

[lionelf]

As Fred effectively said above, I'm just not sure Vlad has the tactics in his repertoire to turn this around fully 180 degrees. His almost robotic jab-jab-hook has been honed to perfection but I feel it is to the detriment of trying out and employing other game plans which, to be fair, he hasn't ever needed to do, until now.

There's only one thing that I can see that Vlad will have in his tank this time that he didn't have last time and that's motivation.

Motivation to not lose to the same guy twice. Motivation to not be forced into retirement by somebody he probably thinks of as a journeyman. Motivation to regain the world heavyweight crown for himself, his family and his nation.

His problem could be that motivation does not equal a legitimate game plan to overcome somebody who you failed to overcome the first time round. Motivation/Bravery merely ensures that when you lose you get either kudos for effort if you are still standing or you get carried out on your shield if not. He'll need a fresh approach.

Especially as his other great weapon was, like Iron Mike before him, the fear he instilled in the guy in the other corner before the fight had even started. On this score Fury was immense. He genuinely knew he would win and (with hindsight) his demeanour prior to the fight should have alerted people to the fact that this wasn't going to be the usual one-sided contest that Vlad faces.

Nobody, least of all Vlad, will fail to notice that this time Fury again enters the ring with absolutely no fear of him and a genuine belief that he will prevail again. Something Vlad hasn't had to face in many a year. I don't like Fury as a human being but by god I respect him as a combatant.

Edited by lionelf on Tuesday 12th April 15:32

[hornetrider]

lionelf said:

Motivation to not lose to the same guy twice. Motivation to not be forced into retirement by somebody he probably thinks of as a journeyman. Motivation to regain the world heavyweight crown for himself, his family and his nation.

I agree with this completely. Vlad is fighting for his legacy. Fury is a bum (attitude wise), he will not want his career ended by someone like that. I say he comes out fighting big time.

[MitchmachineUAE]

Wlad's problem was his typical defensive game plan couldn't get him near Fury. He landed something like 52 punches in 12 rounds of boxing, he used to be able to churn that out in a round. So is it a fitness thing (some speculate it might be) or did Fury just have a better plan for the fight? I personally think Fury's camp had done mega amounts of homework and put a plan together that bewildered Wlad, they kept Tyson out of range most of the night and built everything around movement and a jab. This took out the left hook to some extent but also the crucial tie ups where Wlad will lean on his opponents and drain their energy.

I really hope that come July Wlad's camp will have torn up his rule book from the last 10 years, acknowledged that it is unlikely to work and set up a more offensive strategy. Surely looking at the last round of the fight where Wlad was walking through Fury's jab suggests he can get close enough to cause enough damage. I think they'll be looking for an early KO. The deciding factor will be how easy Wlad finds it to throw caution to the wind after creating a legacy built around a defensive approach.

Either way I'm looking forwards to the fight. It'll be fascinating to see how it plays out.

[tuscaneer]

my tuppence worth.....

there's been mk1 and mk2 of wlad which robatron mentioned earlier.

mk1 was an absolute offensive animal who tore into opponents and took them out. early.

the problem with this was energy burning. if the unthinkable happened and they weathered the storm he simply ran out of gas. that's a big body to be lugging round for 36 minutes.

mk 2 became the controller. the key word here is control. when steward got hold of him he was keen to make him a chess player in the ring much like lennox. keep it simple and there is less chance of anything going wrong. start throwing fancy combos and leave gaps to be exploited OR concentrate on FOOTWORK.

NOBODY HAS REALLY MENTIONED WLAD'S POSITIONAL WORK.

his ability to set you to his pace is extraordinary and his foot placement sets traps you don't even realize you're being put in. all this CONTROL is what has made him a formiddable champion for so long.....

i like to read spar stories from guys who have been in there and done it. who hit harder? lennox or wlad? who got put on his arse? etc.. etc..

all the guys who spar fury find him an enigma. he is unpredictable....easy to hit one minute then switching stance and going all back foot counter puncher.this was a big factor in the first fight.

i think wladimir was going through some personal issues with his wife's post natal depression at the time. couple this with a genuine feeling that fury posed no threat and you've got a problem.

wlad has made it his business to have every contender out there over to austria for sparring. a little scouting mission to see how good they are......fury was in austria one time and the day he was there wlad was sparring little fast guys for someone or other....they never sparred so wlad never got a sense of the unpredictable nature of fury's armory.



i think you've had his attention elsewhere coupled with fury's gameplan of unpredictable herky jerky boxing throwing wlad off his game. when he started to wake up into the fight his control and trap setting just wouldn't work.


what he needs to do here is to re awken the beast of the late 90's/early 2000's and take it right to tyson. a bit like he did in the 12th.....but from the first bell....


......but then again he is my fking age!....although he probably hasn't got quite the voracious appetite for red wine and take away curries that i have so there's hope for the old fker yet!!

Edited by tuscaneer on Wednesday 13th April 07:00