2017 Six Nations
Discussion
Kermit power said:
There surely has to be something more to it than that, doesn't there?
OK, this current England team might not be the sharpest minds ever to play the game, but even so, you've got to assume there was something making them think they couldn't just pick up and go, even if it was the assumption that no team would be so daft as to leave the rucks completely uncontested specifically because they knew their competition would just pick up and go and romp up the field every time. If you look at the laws, and look at what happened yesterday, England should've picked and carried every time and won the game with a World record score. It's not difficult to see how that would be confusing.
I really did think Poite did the game a disservice with his one liner about being a ref, not a coach. OK, I only referee nine year olds, not professional players at international level, but to my mind, one of the most important parts of reffing at any level should be to explain and educate. Presumably if Hartley had said "if you've not called ruck, can I just step round the guys on the floor, pick it up and run with it", he would've had to have given him a straight answer?
Are you seriously suggesting that England's players were unaware that when the ball in released immediately after a tackle they are quite at liberty to pick it up and run with it? OK, this current England team might not be the sharpest minds ever to play the game, but even so, you've got to assume there was something making them think they couldn't just pick up and go, even if it was the assumption that no team would be so daft as to leave the rucks completely uncontested specifically because they knew their competition would just pick up and go and romp up the field every time. If you look at the laws, and look at what happened yesterday, England should've picked and carried every time and won the game with a World record score. It's not difficult to see how that would be confusing.
I really did think Poite did the game a disservice with his one liner about being a ref, not a coach. OK, I only referee nine year olds, not professional players at international level, but to my mind, one of the most important parts of reffing at any level should be to explain and educate. Presumably if Hartley had said "if you've not called ruck, can I just step round the guys on the floor, pick it up and run with it", he would've had to have given him a straight answer?
DocJock said:
The simple solution is to define making a tackle as playing the ball.
That would be my interpretation if I was still refereeing.
This was one of the ELVs they tried a few years back. It didn't work and therefore was not adopted.That would be my interpretation if I was still refereeing.
If the defending team want to put players the "wrong" side of the breakdown (entirely legally I might add) then they're leaving their defensive line short on numbers. The way to deal with it therefore is through intelligent attacking play, not by throwing a girlie strop to the media (I'm looking at you Eddie).
TheGreatSoprendo said:
spikeyhead said:
I've finally had chance to watch Ireland France. 50 minutes in, there's a "not a ruck," one of the French players goes round the back and Nigel sends him back to his own side. Does Nige not know the rules either?
Was it a maul?spikeyhead said:
No, it was exactly the tactic that Italy were using, but Nige wouldn't let the French go "offside"
Seems odd given he's spoken about his surprise that England's players didn't seem to understand the rules in yesterday's game.http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/nigel-owe...
spikeyhead said:
TheGreatSoprendo said:
spikeyhead said:
I've finally had chance to watch Ireland France. 50 minutes in, there's a "not a ruck," one of the French players goes round the back and Nigel sends him back to his own side. Does Nige not know the rules either?
Was it a maul?I too find it difficult to grasp, as always considered the 'slow to return' or 'loitering' offside to cause a pen, ruck or not.
How Hartley didn't realise and pick and go straight through the middle, typifies the English flip chart seminar over coached rugby they have been spoon fed.
They should be annihilating all and everyone in front of them with strength in depth they have. What they don't have, is anyone who can think on their feet apart from little Hitler, with his silly hair, who was substituted for some bizarre reason.
AWJ was a huge disappointment for me, should have rammmed the ball up Big-Eads backside when he wanted 'corner' .
About as useless as Captain as Robshaw by that showing and I'm a huge fan of AWJ's game.
How Hartley didn't realise and pick and go straight through the middle, typifies the English flip chart seminar over coached rugby they have been spoon fed.
They should be annihilating all and everyone in front of them with strength in depth they have. What they don't have, is anyone who can think on their feet apart from little Hitler, with his silly hair, who was substituted for some bizarre reason.
AWJ was a huge disappointment for me, should have rammmed the ball up Big-Eads backside when he wanted 'corner' .
About as useless as Captain as Robshaw by that showing and I'm a huge fan of AWJ's game.
TheGreatSoprendo said:
Are you seriously suggesting that England's players were unaware that when the ball in released immediately after a tackle they are quite at liberty to pick it up and run with it?
More that it was such an obvious response that it just seems very strange that they didn't adopt it immediately.OK, the England players may be heavily drilled - we were at their open training session at Twickenham a fortnight ago, and they had half the players in blue bibs pretending to be Italy and playing the plays they were expecting Italy to play - but even so, when tens of thousands of supporters up and down the country must've been sat there screaming "pick it up" at their tellies, it just beggars belief that not one of the 15 Englishmen on the pitch would've had the same thought unless something happened to make them question that? Yes, they're heavily drilled, but they've not actually been lobotomised!
RichB said:
hornetrider said:
EWES
EWES 
If you get the chance, watch Nigel Owens referee an Irish team (international or provincial) and let me know what you think.
All I will say is that Nigel is very popular on the after dinner circuit in Ireland...
Robbo66 said:
How Hartley didn't realise and pick and go straight through the middle, typifies the English flip chart seminar over coached rugby they have been spoon fed.
Nail. Head. HitWhen my lad plays 4 for his club at U13, they get taught to take the hit, form the ruck, set the attack and then get it wide as quickly as possible. The traditional RFU way of playing.
He then plays for an academy, coached by an ex Fijian International, where all the lads are taught to pop the ball immediately in the tackle (if their mate isn't there to receive the ball, it's not the carrier's fault) and keep the ball rolling, or look for the cross run and shoot it out of the back door. They'll be taught to mix the rucks up; sometimes forming, sometimes not. It's much more akin to Southern Hem rugby and is complex and a lot harder to play, but is devastating when it comes together
ETA. I meant to finish off by saying English rugby is still too formulaic. That's why you see NZ completing 10 / 12 phases in 2 mins, as they know how to recycle quickly and keep the ball alive (anecdotally, I was told in junior rugby in NZ that whoever lets the ball stop moving gets to do 20 quick press ups..)
Edited by schmalex on Tuesday 28th February 13:34
Kermit power said:
TheGreatSoprendo said:
Are you seriously suggesting that England's players were unaware that when the ball in released immediately after a tackle they are quite at liberty to pick it up and run with it?
More that it was such an obvious response that it just seems very strange that they didn't adopt it immediately.I've refereed dozens of matches this season. I've only done it from the stands though. On Sunday I was refereeing the England match but was obliged to have the sound turned down and being hard of hearing, I could not hear it.
I was confused at first, not being able to hear what the commentators were saying, although the problem was obvious enough. To me it looked like blatant offside so, as it wasn't, I was trying to work it out. What was apparent was that the ref, that's the real one, not me, was signalling play on. Call me simplistic, but that's what I think the England team should have done. After the first few times, I'd cracked what was going on. However, I thought I'd got it wrong as, if it was that simple, the players would have realised it.
Someone pointed out on here that there was no offside line and everything was cleared up, and that was fairly early on as well. If it was my lad's team, he'd have had the physio on for advice from the coach. Mind you, after the first few time, the physio would have known what was going on.
I was confused at first, not being able to hear what the commentators were saying, although the problem was obvious enough. To me it looked like blatant offside so, as it wasn't, I was trying to work it out. What was apparent was that the ref, that's the real one, not me, was signalling play on. Call me simplistic, but that's what I think the England team should have done. After the first few times, I'd cracked what was going on. However, I thought I'd got it wrong as, if it was that simple, the players would have realised it.
Someone pointed out on here that there was no offside line and everything was cleared up, and that was fairly early on as well. If it was my lad's team, he'd have had the physio on for advice from the coach. Mind you, after the first few time, the physio would have known what was going on.
Currently re watching the England game. Alot has been said about the players not reacting to what was happening until after the half time talk. This is inaccurate as from the 35th minute England are mauling, picking and going and exploiting the fringes. Although it shouldn't have taken them that long at least they did finally get it!
I for one am glad that Italy did something different and gave England a challenge and a learning opportunity. Apart from improving our points difference I don't think they would have benefited from putting 70 odd points on Italy.
It also meant a fresher squad with no apparent injuries who will come back fired up for the physical game that Scotland will bring to Twickenham.
I haven't seen that much of Nathan Hughes for wasps but he doesn't seem to have the instinct or ability for jackaling the ball at the ruck. Instead he continually goes off his feet and gives unnecessary penalties. I hope this is dealt with as against Scotland and Ireland we cant afford to be giving kickable penalties.
Eddie still seems to be getting away with stirring up the media with each interview and masterfully managed to direct the focus off what was a disjointed England performance.
On a postive note with ball in hand and in the opposition 22 we often do come away with points. I regularly find myself on my feet celebrating a try as soon as the last pass is completed because you know whoever it is will get over the line.
On a less positive note why o why o why is Rob Howley the Lions attacking coach.
I for one am glad that Italy did something different and gave England a challenge and a learning opportunity. Apart from improving our points difference I don't think they would have benefited from putting 70 odd points on Italy.
It also meant a fresher squad with no apparent injuries who will come back fired up for the physical game that Scotland will bring to Twickenham.
I haven't seen that much of Nathan Hughes for wasps but he doesn't seem to have the instinct or ability for jackaling the ball at the ruck. Instead he continually goes off his feet and gives unnecessary penalties. I hope this is dealt with as against Scotland and Ireland we cant afford to be giving kickable penalties.
Eddie still seems to be getting away with stirring up the media with each interview and masterfully managed to direct the focus off what was a disjointed England performance.
On a postive note with ball in hand and in the opposition 22 we often do come away with points. I regularly find myself on my feet celebrating a try as soon as the last pass is completed because you know whoever it is will get over the line.
On a less positive note why o why o why is Rob Howley the Lions attacking coach.
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