Beat up by Vipers!
Discussion
I am new to Lotus ownership. I have an 89 Esprit which I want to modify. The goal is to beat a Viper on the track. In order to do this, I estimate I need 400 rwhp to do the trick. Has anyone out there modified the Esprit engine for 450 hp? What would it take to produce this type of horsepower?
Speedquest said:
Has anyone out there modified the Esprit engine for 450 hp? What would it take to produce this type of horsepower?
Bigger chargecooler and electric pump, big honkin' turbo with upgraded wastegate, upgraded injectors, upgraded fuel pump and regulator,upgraded cooling system, bigger tires to handle the power (V8 size at least), a couple of extra gear boxes and driveshaft sets, and a spare engine for when that one blows up.
That is assuming you don't get into completely upgrading the internals such as rods, pistons, head work, cams etc. Try to contact Marc Coplon as he claims close to 450 hp I believe in his S4s.
Let us know how you get on......
Jim
95 S4s
You can wait and you'll still be waiting.
It has been pointed out on this board before, but just because the Viper is rather large and "brutish", it is very competent on the track and will handlily dispatch a SE with equal drivers. The brakes are fantastic, acceleration is awesome, and it does handle well. Great cars. Pushrod motors are definitely not dead, especially ones that displace eight liters.
400 rwhp is obtainable, but not easily. I'm at 335rwhp if I run 1.2bar of boost and could probably get some more with head porting and cams. But, you'll never had the flat broad torque curve that pushes the Vipers off corners.
If I were trying to beat the Vipers I'd concentrate on getting the car as light as possible, getting stiffer than stock springs for sure to cut down on that henious SE body roll, a litle more dampning in the shocks, and get some adjustablity in the suspension to dial out the understeer built into the SE series cars. Oh, and get some better brakes that will allow you to at least match or beat the Viper's braking performance.
You'll improve your lap times with these things more than 100hp will. My 0.02 cents.
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Thursday 16th December 16:30
It has been pointed out on this board before, but just because the Viper is rather large and "brutish", it is very competent on the track and will handlily dispatch a SE with equal drivers. The brakes are fantastic, acceleration is awesome, and it does handle well. Great cars. Pushrod motors are definitely not dead, especially ones that displace eight liters.
400 rwhp is obtainable, but not easily. I'm at 335rwhp if I run 1.2bar of boost and could probably get some more with head porting and cams. But, you'll never had the flat broad torque curve that pushes the Vipers off corners.
If I were trying to beat the Vipers I'd concentrate on getting the car as light as possible, getting stiffer than stock springs for sure to cut down on that henious SE body roll, a litle more dampning in the shocks, and get some adjustablity in the suspension to dial out the understeer built into the SE series cars. Oh, and get some better brakes that will allow you to at least match or beat the Viper's braking performance.
You'll improve your lap times with these things more than 100hp will. My 0.02 cents.
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Thursday 16th December 16:30
three way:
1 increase your displacement!
2 I no of car that does run 409hp to the wheels but he went to Greedy And purchased the boost controller bigger turbo T4 And 4 550cc injectors about 20psi
3 Put a different engine in the car. I no of one guy who put a 450hp Buick GNX v6 turbo engine in his esprit. It does 3.5 to 60.
But always remember their is no subustitution for cubic inches!!
1 increase your displacement!
2 I no of car that does run 409hp to the wheels but he went to Greedy And purchased the boost controller bigger turbo T4 And 4 550cc injectors about 20psi
3 Put a different engine in the car. I no of one guy who put a 450hp Buick GNX v6 turbo engine in his esprit. It does 3.5 to 60.
But always remember their is no subustitution for cubic inches!!
There are numerous people in the UK who have upgraded the 910, sometimes to more than double hp, of course the reliability and usability take a big hit. Up to 600hp can be got from a 4 banger and it may well beat the Viper but then need a rebuild shortly after. Different animals altogether the Esprit and the Viper and you can close the gap just by putting on barely road legal track tyres like Yokohama A048 or Avon ZZR (often overlooked mod), tweaking the suspension and taking out any excess weight like spare wheel and all the carpet. How do you think the Exige gets such good times on the Top Gear track with only a 1.8 litre 4 pot. Extra sticky tyres, Lotus tuned springs and a positively skeletal frame...
"For speed, add lightness" ACBC
>> Edited by benfell100 on Thursday 16th December 17:10
"For speed, add lightness" ACBC
>> Edited by benfell100 on Thursday 16th December 17:10
The "real trick" to running with Vipers on a track is to be allowed to pick the track. The next variable you have no control over... but some of the local Viper (and Vette) drivers here seem to think that Hp can make up for skill. I suppose that may be true on a straight track... but (always a but) raw Hp in a straight line does not and will not make up for setting up your correctly for a turn. Case and point wuld be the fact that I (an average driver) can and have taken Vipers and Vetts on the hard "twisties" in my MX-5 Miata for a better total run time. Particularly this is true in the space of a Solo I or Solo II autocross track. I have also found that the Esprit requires a bit of skill to handle on the tight twisties. It rides rails... but does not respond to being "tossed" about like the MX-5's or Z-3's out there.
So, stiffen' her up and practice the curves! I dare say a skilled driver in an Esprit will be a bit of a match for a Viper on a course like Road Atlanta, Barbour in B'Ham AL, or No Problem Raceway in LA.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
So, stiffen' her up and practice the curves! I dare say a skilled driver in an Esprit will be a bit of a match for a Viper on a course like Road Atlanta, Barbour in B'Ham AL, or No Problem Raceway in LA.
Drive topless!!!
Cameron
Careful you don't snap off your 5th gear by going over 350bhp. The car will do it, but how long will the Renault gearbox put up with it is the question you need to ask yourself.
There's a chap called Derek Bell here in the UK, who has produced a gearbox mod that will allow it to handle way over 350bhp consistently.
Worth a chat before killing your car.
Alan
There's a chap called Derek Bell here in the UK, who has produced a gearbox mod that will allow it to handle way over 350bhp consistently.
Worth a chat before killing your car.
Alan
www.bell-performance.co.uk
well worth a look. Now we don't need to spend thousands on Quaife/G50 gearboxes and all the hassle in fitting them to get 500 hp and 450 lb ft of torque through the box
well worth a look. Now we don't need to spend thousands on Quaife/G50 gearboxes and all the hassle in fitting them to get 500 hp and 450 lb ft of torque through the box
Thanks for the input , Guys. As a newbie to Lotus ownership (I bought mine last year to address my mid-life crisis), I am glad to have such a wealth of knowledge available to me through this forum.
I plan on building my dream Lotus. Starting with a Sport 300 kit from SJ Sportscars (on order), 1997 AWI wheels (purchased), Alcon brakes/330mm rotors (ex-SCCA Trans AM stuff), color - Calypso Red or Shocking Green.
The design criteria is to beat the Viper on the track. After examining your replies, I decided to perform a weight/horsepower analysis. The 1992 Dodge Viper is 450 hp/3400lbs. The 1989 Lotus Esprit (the lightest - no ABS/airbags crap (safety be damned!)is about 2800lbs. With the Viper having 0.133 hp/lb, (through the magic of mathematics!)I determined my Lotus would need only 370hp! But with better aerodynamics and equal brakes stopping less mass, my objective of beating a Viper is very obtainable. Thanks for everyone's input.
Darnel
P.S. Does anyone have an email address for Marc Coplin?
I plan on building my dream Lotus. Starting with a Sport 300 kit from SJ Sportscars (on order), 1997 AWI wheels (purchased), Alcon brakes/330mm rotors (ex-SCCA Trans AM stuff), color - Calypso Red or Shocking Green.
The design criteria is to beat the Viper on the track. After examining your replies, I decided to perform a weight/horsepower analysis. The 1992 Dodge Viper is 450 hp/3400lbs. The 1989 Lotus Esprit (the lightest - no ABS/airbags crap (safety be damned!)is about 2800lbs. With the Viper having 0.133 hp/lb, (through the magic of mathematics!)I determined my Lotus would need only 370hp! But with better aerodynamics and equal brakes stopping less mass, my objective of beating a Viper is very obtainable. Thanks for everyone's input.
Darnel
P.S. Does anyone have an email address for Marc Coplin?
You are comparing peak hp numbers to make your calculations, not a good idea. You need to think about area under horsepower/torque the curve, of which the Viper has much more than the Lotus motor can put out.
Vipers are very competent cars on track. Particularily the later model examples that you've omitted, but which you regularily see at BMW, Porsche, or open track days. I think people like to look at something, such as a car, airplane, TV, etc. and say "well, it does A really well, so it must not do B so well". That is, they look at an object and say it must have compromises, particularily with things like handling and acceleration of cars. In the real world these compromises may or may not exist - acceleration, braking, and handling can be mutually exclusive.
In the Viper example, they handle quite well, are predicatble, very fast, and brake well. So, while there are compromises in the overall package, sure, it still sums up to a formidble car on a track.
Someone mentined solo and autocross results with a Viper and I agree, they will not fare so well on these 45sec bonzai runs that don't approximate a real track. I disagree however about road courses and the Esprit taking Vipers, particularily at Road Atlanta which is a horsepower track - you'll be watching Viper tail lights on that course. Might not be far behind, might be two laps down, but you'll be watching tail lights.
I'm not downplaying the Lotus or what you're trying to do, just trying to be very realistic. I've not taken my Lotus to an autocross or solo event, but have on the track and have a good idea for what is possible. On a single marquee board you generally don't find a lot of balance, but, that is the way it is. But remember - while you're tuning your Lotus remember those Viper guys are serious enthusaists too and they work/tune on theirs just as heartedly as the Lotus people do, some even more so - check out Viper Alley for more info. You're chances of seeing a stock Viper on the track are slim to none, and slim is out of town.
Take care,
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Saturday 18th December 20:40
Vipers are very competent cars on track. Particularily the later model examples that you've omitted, but which you regularily see at BMW, Porsche, or open track days. I think people like to look at something, such as a car, airplane, TV, etc. and say "well, it does A really well, so it must not do B so well". That is, they look at an object and say it must have compromises, particularily with things like handling and acceleration of cars. In the real world these compromises may or may not exist - acceleration, braking, and handling can be mutually exclusive.
In the Viper example, they handle quite well, are predicatble, very fast, and brake well. So, while there are compromises in the overall package, sure, it still sums up to a formidble car on a track.
Someone mentined solo and autocross results with a Viper and I agree, they will not fare so well on these 45sec bonzai runs that don't approximate a real track. I disagree however about road courses and the Esprit taking Vipers, particularily at Road Atlanta which is a horsepower track - you'll be watching Viper tail lights on that course. Might not be far behind, might be two laps down, but you'll be watching tail lights.
I'm not downplaying the Lotus or what you're trying to do, just trying to be very realistic. I've not taken my Lotus to an autocross or solo event, but have on the track and have a good idea for what is possible. On a single marquee board you generally don't find a lot of balance, but, that is the way it is. But remember - while you're tuning your Lotus remember those Viper guys are serious enthusaists too and they work/tune on theirs just as heartedly as the Lotus people do, some even more so - check out Viper Alley for more info. You're chances of seeing a stock Viper on the track are slim to none, and slim is out of town.
Take care,
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Saturday 18th December 20:40
Yes, Ron, you are correct. The area under the curve will dictate the amount of usable torque which is available to propel the Viper out of the corner better than the Lotus. However, that extra torque is need to move an additional 500 lbs of weight the Viper has over the Lotus. That is equilvant to the Lotus carting around a extra small block Chevrolet engine in the trunk! Not only does that extra 500lbs have to be accelerated, it also has to be decelerated, and coaxed to change direction around corners!
Along with this 500lb anchor the Viper has to carry, it also has an additional sail (drag from bad aero) it has to overcome down the long straignt at Road Atlanta.
With equlivant size brakes, I will have an advantage because I have 500 less pounds to slow down, so I will be able to outbrake the Viper.
So with equilvant brakes, v8 wheels and tires, and about 370-400 hp, I think I will suprise a few Viper owners!
Darnel
Along with this 500lb anchor the Viper has to carry, it also has an additional sail (drag from bad aero) it has to overcome down the long straignt at Road Atlanta.
With equlivant size brakes, I will have an advantage because I have 500 less pounds to slow down, so I will be able to outbrake the Viper.
So with equilvant brakes, v8 wheels and tires, and about 370-400 hp, I think I will suprise a few Viper owners!
Darnel
Like has been said above, be careful the viper guys haven’t been spending as much money as you, if not more. Perhaps they have added a super charger netting themselves big HP gains, added a big brake kit, the stock SRT10 can pull up nearly as fast as the Maclaren F1 road car which is considered one of the best stopping road cars. The upgrade options available on a viper seem only to be limited by your $$ and some of these guys have lots of $$.
Have you seen the video of the supercharged viper racing the busa’s or Nadine wining the RWD handling on a tight twisty (cone dodgeing) track at TOTB II or the recent video if the viper taking the ¼ mile record for a 6 Speed road car in 8.88 @ 164 mph.
I wish you all the best with your upgrades.
Have you seen the video of the supercharged viper racing the busa’s or Nadine wining the RWD handling on a tight twisty (cone dodgeing) track at TOTB II or the recent video if the viper taking the ¼ mile record for a 6 Speed road car in 8.88 @ 164 mph.
I wish you all the best with your upgrades.
I'm well-versed with what 500lbs does to a car with respect to acceleration and handling. I may not have as much experience as you on a track, but, I've had my Esprit on two different road courses a few times. My car is making 335 rear wheel horsepower on cool days, so, it would be in the realm of what you wish for meeting your needs. However, I still can't accelerate as fast as a Viper can off corners, and, since I have stock brakes can't out brake them, obviously.
But, I don't believe your goal unobtainable, just maybe a little harder than your first impressions. If you've an 89 (non SE, no charge cooler and no GM electronics, correct?) you're going to need to get your turbo discharge air cooled in some manner, either using a stock chargecooler or your own design. If it is a non-SE there is little you can do with ECU modifications, and, since you are going to need a lot of power, I'd suggest skipping upgrading it to the GM ECU stuff and just use a stand alone like MoTec or Electromotive. You'll have a lot more tunablilty and it'll be easier to acheive your goals.
As mentioned you want to get the weight down as low as possible and get some really good brakes. In addition, I would look for a Quaiffe LSD as I cannot put all the power down I have when exiting corners as is - too much wheel spin.
Don't discount Vipers, they do well at the track. And, another car that you probably consider inferior to the Viper but it is an awesome track car is the Z06 Corvette - very well balanced and will also be a handful for an Esprit 4 banger. Yep, IMHO ugly and common, but they can run well on a road course. I don't own either of these cars and don't foresee myself doing so, but I've got a healthy respect for them on the track. Do what they do well and are quite reliable.
But, I don't believe your goal unobtainable, just maybe a little harder than your first impressions. If you've an 89 (non SE, no charge cooler and no GM electronics, correct?) you're going to need to get your turbo discharge air cooled in some manner, either using a stock chargecooler or your own design. If it is a non-SE there is little you can do with ECU modifications, and, since you are going to need a lot of power, I'd suggest skipping upgrading it to the GM ECU stuff and just use a stand alone like MoTec or Electromotive. You'll have a lot more tunablilty and it'll be easier to acheive your goals.
As mentioned you want to get the weight down as low as possible and get some really good brakes. In addition, I would look for a Quaiffe LSD as I cannot put all the power down I have when exiting corners as is - too much wheel spin.
Don't discount Vipers, they do well at the track. And, another car that you probably consider inferior to the Viper but it is an awesome track car is the Z06 Corvette - very well balanced and will also be a handful for an Esprit 4 banger. Yep, IMHO ugly and common, but they can run well on a road course. I don't own either of these cars and don't foresee myself doing so, but I've got a healthy respect for them on the track. Do what they do well and are quite reliable.
speedquest said:
P.S. Does anyone have an email address for Marc Coplin?
He can be found on the turbo list.
Last I heard he was trying to sell his car.
He does have the LSD in his car and I think it is set up with various chips on a switch.
Last I recall the wanted almost V8 money for the S4s. I have no idea how much track time he has on his car. But he seems like a good guy when I talked to him on the phone.
I drove Ron's car on the track two weekends ago, briefly. 330 hp at the wheels. Unlimited wheel spin if you wanted it, and I had a hard time keeping up with a well driven mid-90s non-turbo 911. Why? Other than driver, tires. Ron had street tires on his car, the 911 had R rubber.
This made the 911 far more balanced, and far quicker off the corners.
Which leads me to....balance. Ron made a good point above. Balance is key in a track car, more so than almost anything else other than overall grip.
And the Z06 is just about the best balanced car I've seen, other than an E36 M3 perhaps or maybe a 944 Turbo. The Z has tons of power. It stops and turns well.
So, just adding HP to your car isn't going to make it a Viper killer, ON THE TRACK. What a 4 cylinder Esprit needs on track is:
a. Wider rubber, and R compound tires. I run RA-1s on my 93 SE and it sticks pretty good. Having driven both, although it is way down on power to Ron's SE, I think it is probably quicker overall ON TRACk (1/4 mile is completely different story) due to grip and being able to get the power down early and often.
Wider rims and tires would help here as well.
b. BRAKES. You need to upgrade the brakes on the SE to run with the fastest of the fast. Ditch the rotors and the calipers, and get some race or near race pads.
c. Suspension. The SE is MADLY undersprung and overdamped. It rolls like the Poseidon after Shelley Winters wandered from starboard to port. Really affects high speed transitions in the car, and also there is a ton of understeer dialed in at the limit.
Stiffer springs are required.
With all of that, and without doing anything other than a cheap S4s chip and exhaust, you'd have a car that would run with and probably most Viper drivers. No the car, the Viper DRIVER.
Had this discussion before on this board. I love my Lotus. Don't want a Viper. But I try to avoid the "mine's bigger" stuff, especially with a monster with an 8.0 liter (that's nearly FOUR TIMES the size of my motor) V10. Let him be good at what he does, and I'll be good at what I do.
And besides, my car just looks better.....
This made the 911 far more balanced, and far quicker off the corners.
Which leads me to....balance. Ron made a good point above. Balance is key in a track car, more so than almost anything else other than overall grip.
And the Z06 is just about the best balanced car I've seen, other than an E36 M3 perhaps or maybe a 944 Turbo. The Z has tons of power. It stops and turns well.
So, just adding HP to your car isn't going to make it a Viper killer, ON THE TRACK. What a 4 cylinder Esprit needs on track is:
a. Wider rubber, and R compound tires. I run RA-1s on my 93 SE and it sticks pretty good. Having driven both, although it is way down on power to Ron's SE, I think it is probably quicker overall ON TRACk (1/4 mile is completely different story) due to grip and being able to get the power down early and often.
Wider rims and tires would help here as well.
b. BRAKES. You need to upgrade the brakes on the SE to run with the fastest of the fast. Ditch the rotors and the calipers, and get some race or near race pads.
c. Suspension. The SE is MADLY undersprung and overdamped. It rolls like the Poseidon after Shelley Winters wandered from starboard to port. Really affects high speed transitions in the car, and also there is a ton of understeer dialed in at the limit.
Stiffer springs are required.
With all of that, and without doing anything other than a cheap S4s chip and exhaust, you'd have a car that would run with and probably most Viper drivers. No the car, the Viper DRIVER.
Had this discussion before on this board. I love my Lotus. Don't want a Viper. But I try to avoid the "mine's bigger" stuff, especially with a monster with an 8.0 liter (that's nearly FOUR TIMES the size of my motor) V10. Let him be good at what he does, and I'll be good at what I do.
And besides, my car just looks better.....
A very well-balanced appraisal by Jeff.
Something to consider is how does the chassis deal with sticky tires, big brakes, etc? Dave Hsu runs with the Ferrari Club every so often and told me that he loses a lot of time to F355s (which the V8 is faster than on paper) under braking because the Ferrari is much more stable. The lower a-arms of the Esprit just don't deal well with the forces of sticky tires and big brakes and Dave's not even running R tires.
A funny thing with actual track racing is that "good" handling does not necessarily equal fast lap times. It's hard to beat big power + big brakes + big tires. The Viper guys have all that stuff in spades. The question is how well the driver can handle it all.
And consider this: the Esprit that was so fast back in the day in the IMSA series was competing against the ancient C4 Corvette. That was 1992! A modern Corvette or Viper is miles removed from a 1992 Corvette.
It's tempting to dismiss the Viper as a big cartoon car but they really are scary fast in the right hands.
Something to consider is how does the chassis deal with sticky tires, big brakes, etc? Dave Hsu runs with the Ferrari Club every so often and told me that he loses a lot of time to F355s (which the V8 is faster than on paper) under braking because the Ferrari is much more stable. The lower a-arms of the Esprit just don't deal well with the forces of sticky tires and big brakes and Dave's not even running R tires.
A funny thing with actual track racing is that "good" handling does not necessarily equal fast lap times. It's hard to beat big power + big brakes + big tires. The Viper guys have all that stuff in spades. The question is how well the driver can handle it all.
And consider this: the Esprit that was so fast back in the day in the IMSA series was competing against the ancient C4 Corvette. That was 1992! A modern Corvette or Viper is miles removed from a 1992 Corvette.
It's tempting to dismiss the Viper as a big cartoon car but they really are scary fast in the right hands.
Amen Mike. Big sticky tires, big brakes and lots of hp, with a chassis designed to deal with it, makes for one fast track car.
For example, not knocking Ron's car (a wicked fast 90 SE) at all, but it's almost too much hp for the track. You can really get into a corner too far with those brakes and all that power, and you have a hard time getting off with the wheel spin.
Let me give you another example: the E36 M3. Derided by a lot of people when it first came out, in my view it is the perfect track car for the masses. Torquey motor with more than adequate power. Great brakes. Very balanced chassis. An E36 with R tires and decent brakes pads is a phenonmenal track weapon, and more than a match for most Esprits (even V8s).
And yeah, and I am expecting flames from guys saying no way a 240 hp M3 would beat an Esprit, but let me tell you, that car is balanced, it STOPS, and it will put power down way better than an Esprit. It really makes the driver's task that much easier.
Maybe you take Shumi and put him in both cars and he turns faster lap times in an SE, an S4s or a V8, but my guess is that with average drivers, the M3 would be on the whole a faster car because it is just so much easier to drive fast.
For example, not knocking Ron's car (a wicked fast 90 SE) at all, but it's almost too much hp for the track. You can really get into a corner too far with those brakes and all that power, and you have a hard time getting off with the wheel spin.
Let me give you another example: the E36 M3. Derided by a lot of people when it first came out, in my view it is the perfect track car for the masses. Torquey motor with more than adequate power. Great brakes. Very balanced chassis. An E36 with R tires and decent brakes pads is a phenonmenal track weapon, and more than a match for most Esprits (even V8s).
And yeah, and I am expecting flames from guys saying no way a 240 hp M3 would beat an Esprit, but let me tell you, that car is balanced, it STOPS, and it will put power down way better than an Esprit. It really makes the driver's task that much easier.
Maybe you take Shumi and put him in both cars and he turns faster lap times in an SE, an S4s or a V8, but my guess is that with average drivers, the M3 would be on the whole a faster car because it is just so much easier to drive fast.
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