UK bike sales plummet

[Mutts]

vaud said:

Orange Mountain Bikes and P Bairstow have gone into adminstration.

https://www.consultancy.uk/news/36368/bdo-selected...

Not a cyclist these days but the Orange frame was the first mountain bike that I coveted.

Went to their launch event at Leisure Lakes Southport back in the days, couldn't afford a Clockwork but bought a sweatshirt.
Sweatshirt is still going after 35yrs!!! Proper British engineering in a garment.
Be nice if they could join with Hope, unless trhey are in trouble

[OutInTheShed]

thepritch said:

How did you find Amsterdam? I’m obsessed with trying to understand how they got to where they are, and also wonder, why is it people seemingly get on their bikes (over using the car) in the depths of winter? How did they remove the barriers to make it an actual preferable mode of transport?

1) It's flat. Cycling is a lot easier tthan in Bristol.
2) the RAf flattened it some more, making space for cycle lanes
3) they've had a coherent idea of how their city should be for a long time.

[Craikeybaby]

I thought the Dutch only started getting big into cycling in the '70s?

[thepritch]

OutInTheShed said:

1) It's flat. Cycling is a lot easier tthan in Bristol.
2) the RAf flattened it some more, making space for cycle lanes
3) they've had a coherent idea of how their city should be for a long time.

Thank you So taking it further beyond the terrain and political will, what barriers have been removed to make the idea of pedalling (commute?) more compelling than car travel?

Are there plenty of places to park bikes?
What stops then being stolen?
Are there a lot of cycle shops to service your bike?
Are cycle paths / roads completely segregated ?
What is the distance across Amsterdam so I assume the length of a commute would be quite short?
Do people cycle more than drive when it comes to the suburbs, or areas just outside Amsterdam?
Is taking the car so much of a hassle people then prefer to cycle? Or lack of roads, or lack of parking places?
Are there penalty (cost?) to using a car?
Are there financial incentives for using a bike?

As you can tell, I’ve never been but there are plenty of barriers to using a bike but seemingly these have been removed, or barriers to using a car are now so much.

[Craikeybaby]

Are there plenty of places to park bikes? - Loads
What stops then being stolen? - Bikes are usually cheap city bikes, everyone already has one, so less market to sell them.
Are there a lot of cycle shops to service your bike? - Yes
Are cycle paths / roads completely segregated ? - Mostly, but also, roads are quieter, so when you do have to ride on the road, it is less of an issue.
What is the distance across Amsterdam so I assume the length of a commute would be quite short? - Not sure, but there are bike paths between cities
Do people cycle more than drive when it comes to the suburbs, or areas just outside Amsterdam? - It is the whole country, not just Amsterdam
Is taking the car so much of a hassle people then prefer to cycle? Or lack of roads, or lack of parking places? - The roads are nice and quiet, because everyone are on bikes. Parking isn't great in cities.
Are there penalty (cost?) to using a car? - It is expensive to run a car in the Netherlands.
Are there financial incentives for using a bike? - See above.

[OutInTheShed]

thepritch said:

OutInTheShed said:

1) It's flat. Cycling is a lot easier tthan in Bristol.
2) the RAf flattened it some more, making space for cycle lanes
3) they've had a coherent idea of how their city should be for a long time.

Thank you So taking it further beyond the terrain and political will, what barriers have been removed to make the idea of pedalling (commute?) more compelling than car travel?

Are there plenty of places to park bikes?
What stops then being stolen?
Are there a lot of cycle shops to service your bike?
Are cycle paths / roads completely segregated ?
What is the distance across Amsterdam so I assume the length of a commute would be quite short?
Do people cycle more than drive when it comes to the suburbs, or areas just outside Amsterdam?
Is taking the car so much of a hassle people then prefer to cycle? Or lack of roads, or lack of parking places?
Are there penalty (cost?) to using a car?
Are there financial incentives for using a bike?

As you can tell, I’ve never been but there are plenty of barriers to using a bike but seemingly these have been removed, or barriers to using a car are now so much.

Seriously, I would suggest that societal differences are in play.

While Southern England was wanting to live in the suburbs or expanding villages and everyone driving everywhere and wives going out to work and everyone commuting miles, with all the implications for lots of car use and abandoning public transport, during the 70s/80s/90s, attitudes were very different in much of Europe.
Obviously it's much more complex and subtle than can be adequately analysed in a paragraph or two, as obviously 'England' and 'the Continent' are not all bunches of clones.
But throughout the last 70 years there are more differences than just 'talking foreign'.

Also, I'd say that plenty of places in euroland are just as messed up as much of England. Sometimes in very similar ways.

[tertius]

Craikeybaby said:

Are there plenty of places to park bikes? - Loads
What stops then being stolen? - Bikes are usually cheap city bikes, everyone already has one, so less market to sell them.
Are there a lot of cycle shops to service your bike? - Yes
Are cycle paths / roads completely segregated ? - Mostly, but also, roads are quieter, so when you do have to ride on the road, it is less of an issue.
What is the distance across Amsterdam so I assume the length of a commute would be quite short? - Not sure, but there are bike paths between cities
Do people cycle more than drive when it comes to the suburbs, or areas just outside Amsterdam? - It is the whole country, not just Amsterdam
Is taking the car so much of a hassle people then prefer to cycle? Or lack of roads, or lack of parking places? - The roads are nice and quiet, because everyone are on bikes. Parking isn't great in cities.
Are there penalty (cost?) to using a car? - It is expensive to run a car in the Netherlands.
Are there financial incentives for using a bike? - See above.

I think you might be somewhat underestimating bike theft in Amsterdam. I understand form friends who live there that it is endemic, and this study supports that view:

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-02-2...

[Craikeybaby]

Possibly - my experience is based on a small rural town in the south of the country.

[okgo]

It’s quite the experience going on in say Maastricht or Ghent. You can actually sit out front of a bar on a big road and hear yourself think.

I’ve cycled in Belgium more so than NL and the cycle paths are incredible, a mate and I rode through some forest to Monschau for miles on this perfect path for road bikes. It was a dream.

[vaud]

Mutts said:

Went to their launch event at Leisure Lakes Southport back in the days, couldn't afford a Clockwork but bought a sweatshirt.
Sweatshirt is still going after 35yrs!!! Proper British engineering in a garment.
Be nice if they could join with Hope, unless trhey are in trouble

Is MBUK and MintSauce still a thing?

[YorkshireStu]

thepritch said:

I’m with you on the ambition, too many cars (as we currently know them) and shocking public transport infrastructure in the uk. I know it was a somewhat flippant comment about the car ban, but there are a good proportion of society where this just isn’t feasible even if the will or desire is there. Where we live, it would be impossible to live here without a car - and that’s me saying that as a rather enthused cyclist who loves to ride. An ebike wouldn’t help. We’re not that unique.

How did you find Amsterdam? I’m obsessed with trying to understand how they got to where they are, and also wonder, why is it people seemingly get on their bikes (over using the car) in the depths of winter? How did they remove the barriers to make it an actual preferable mode of transport?

Amsterdam is great but while the cycling infrastructure is excellent, the Dutch can be cycle terrorists and intolerant - some are the cycling version of UK Motorists. Perhaps I’m being unkind but Amsterdam and other large cities in the Netherlands have dense traffic of all types and everyone is in a hurry. Still, I loved my time there, a vibrant city with a lot to offer and a cyclists dream in many ways.

Bike theft is indeed high there though, my ex’s bike was stolen but it was parked outside. She then parked in the storeroom and city multi-story bike park after that.

Their transformation took some time and planning; they went from car-obsessed to bike-friendly via a very well-thought out campaign that has been embraced and successful. Planning was bike-centric and took decades to build. Amsterdam etc are the epitome of 15 min cities.
Cargo-bikes and the Amsterdam bike with baskets make it easy to get around. Appropriate Winter attire means no getting wet and it’s actually quicker and easier to get around by bicycle in many cases.

There is an increasing take-up of e-bikes now, they make it easier still.

Copenhagen is a lot better, same infrastructure but largely law-abiding, courteous cyclists in my experience. The Danes are cycling-mad and love it in its many guises.

My ex is Belgian so I have spent a lot of time riding in Gent etc and that too is very good in terms of cycle infrastructure but they still have a lot of car congestion. But cycling is easy there, great infrastructure.

Slovakia surprised me with some amazing cycle routes that went on for hours.

Mainland Europe generally is leaps and bounds better for cycling than the UK, sadly. They not only tolerate cyclists but embrace the culture of bicycle use.

[dave123456]

vaud said:

Mutts said:

Went to their launch event at Leisure Lakes Southport back in the days, couldn't afford a Clockwork but bought a sweatshirt.
Sweatshirt is still going after 35yrs!!! Proper British engineering in a garment.
Be nice if they could join with Hope, unless trhey are in trouble

Is MBUK and MintSauce still a thing?

Yes

[funinhounslow]

YorkshireStu said:

Their transformation took some time and planning; they went from car-obsessed to bike-friendly via a very well-thought out campaign that has been embraced and successful. Planning was bike-centric and took decades to build. Amsterdam etc are the epitome of 15 min cities.

I think this is key. Plenty of films on You Tube show the Dutch embraced the car but high number of cyclist casualties- in party children - led to a campaign to improve cycling infrastructure. This was “assisted” by the simultaneous arrival of the oil crises in the early 1970s. But it has been a long slow process to get where they are today.

We’re getting there here too - slowly but surely. E-bikes will be the big game changer I’m sure. I’ve had one for about 6 years and I use it far more than anticipated. For short hops in town (<10 miles) I absolutely prefer to cycle rather than drive.

E-bikes and segregated bike lanes are a powerful combination that have the potential to radically change our towns for the better. It just takes political “courage” to push through unpopular infrastructure changes.

One problem is that bike lanes often appear “empty” leading to complaints about underuse, whereas this is just an illustration of how efficient they are at moving people…

[President Merkin]

Under used bike lanes come in regularly for criticism, usually from the anti cycling brigade. Reality is they're often as not dilapidated, potholed, strewn with glass & laid out illogically, ending in silly places. I can think of a dozen round here that run for 50 yards on main roads & just stop, hence no one uses them. The commitment to cycling infrastructure in the uK is like so much else, at best half hearted.

[troc]

Indeed, the Dutch forced their government into changing to a bike-first system after road deaths became intolerable in the 1960’s.

They now have rules in place that require bike access to be planned into every road design and build. This is combined with a legal system that assumes the less vulnerable party to be at fault. So if a car hits a bike, it is assumed the car was at fault unless they can absolutely prove it was the fault of the bike. Which is almost impossible. So cars avoid bikes.

In urban areas, the roads are shared and traffic lights are set to slow cars down and impede movement.

Outside town centres, around major roads, cars and bikes have entirely separate road networks with individual signage etc.

Here’s an old video of my commute. I should make a new one

https://youtu.be/1jme7FF3Atc?si=Z9ezNdnUx6I65jOH

[Hard-Drive]

YorkshireStu said:

I'd be quite happy if private car ownership was banned tomorrow.

I've lived without using a car when I was living part-time in Amsterdam, and last year in the UK I added the princely sum total of about 1000 miles to my car.

More people on bikes with the required infrastructure to support that would be my dream.

But...millions of years away from that in the UK!

Ideal for many, totally impossible for some.

I've just spent the last two days in London, attending a number of client meetings and arriving to them on my fabulous Brompton (I've got a shed full of N+1 carbon, Ti and steel bikes, but there's a bit of me thinking the Brommie is my favourite just because it's so clever) Why anyone would want to drive a car in London is beyond me, unbelievably slow, ruinously expensive and stressful.

But...I live in one of the most rural counties in England, in a small village with woeful public transport. The nearest railway station with a direct train to London is 45 minutes away. Ignoring the "fun" cars in the garage for a moment and any petrolhead tendencies, not having a car would be like going back to the dark ages, it would just make daily life impossible as a professional working person with a family. And worse than that, my next daily is probably going to end up being a large 4x4, as my village now floods so regularly it's the only kind of car that can actually get about!

[irc]

troc said:

Indeed, the Dutch forced their government into changing to a bike-first system after road deaths became intolerable in the 1960’s.

The Netherlands have a significantly higher road death rate than the UK. 3.8 per 100,000 compared to 2.9 for the UK.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...

So it seems the UK approach to road safety is better and while a bike first system may have other public health benefits lower road deaths isn't one of them.


`

[irc]

funinhounslow said:

One problem is that bike lanes often appear “empty” leading to complaints about underuse, whereas this is just an illustration of how efficient they are at moving people…

Or alternatively they just are not used much. I have a first class seperated bike lane near me I use several times a week. I am usually the only cyclist on it.

Stats show the bike lane carries 2% of the traffic on the road. Is the cost and use of roadspace for this facility worth it for 2% of journeys?

https://www.eastdunbarton.gov.uk/residents/plannin...

[troc]

irc said:

troc said:

Indeed, the Dutch forced their government into changing to a bike-first system after road deaths became intolerable in the 1960’s.

The Netherlands have a significantly higher road death rate than the UK. 3.8 per 100,000 compared to 2.9 for the UK.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...

So it seems the UK approach to road safety is better and while a bike first system may have other public health benefits lower road deaths isn't one of them.

That's not entirely fair. Dutch road deaths in the 60's were horrific. So were the statistics in the UK. The Dutch approach did bring the numbers down - so did the UK approach. The Dutch system has many other benefits and we are still talking about two countries with some of the lowest road death numbers in the world.

Also, road deaths in Holland have risen significantly since all the old people bought e-bikes - which is a genuine problem as they are a bloody menace although the 14 year olds on derestricted ones delivering pizza are worse.

In general, the Netherlands is a vastly safer place to ride a bike and you are probably much less likely to have a serious injury during any particular journey. The issue becomes that more people ride more bike kilometers which makes them more susceptible to road traffic accidents - these are frequently bike v bike for example.

Plus the Dutch are, it has to be said, a menace on any form of wheeled transport!

[GCH]

vaud said:

Is MBUK and MintSauce still a thing?

Yes
https://www.etsy.com/shop/GenuineSauceMaterial