Caterham 'copies'
Discussion
Hi all,
I've driven a few track days now and am looking to buy myself a reasonable (sub £8k) track day car.
It won't need to be practical for the road (my current car is ok for that) and I can tow to tracks if needed.
My budget only goes to about £5-8k and the less I can spend, the more I will have for the track days, tyres, etc.
I have been looking at the Robin Hood and other Caterham based designs (not to upset anyone if these aren't viewed as 'copies'!). Having only ever driven SV Caterhams (6'2" and of average build), how do these compare?
Ideally I'd like to buy asap this year but rather than take every car I look at for a test drive (this has annoyed me in the past when buyers test pilot my cars for sale), I wanted to know people's experienced opinions.
Also, any recommendations on engine type, model, etc gratefully received. I'm looking for something to excite and I believe anything around 160bhp will do that in a light chassis.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Neil
I've driven a few track days now and am looking to buy myself a reasonable (sub £8k) track day car.
It won't need to be practical for the road (my current car is ok for that) and I can tow to tracks if needed.
My budget only goes to about £5-8k and the less I can spend, the more I will have for the track days, tyres, etc.
I have been looking at the Robin Hood and other Caterham based designs (not to upset anyone if these aren't viewed as 'copies'!). Having only ever driven SV Caterhams (6'2" and of average build), how do these compare?
Ideally I'd like to buy asap this year but rather than take every car I look at for a test drive (this has annoyed me in the past when buyers test pilot my cars for sale), I wanted to know people's experienced opinions.
Also, any recommendations on engine type, model, etc gratefully received. I'm looking for something to excite and I believe anything around 160bhp will do that in a light chassis.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Neil
I've never once seen a Robin Hood on a trackday, nor has anyone I know. I think that probably says it all. I was in a similar situation to yourself and bought an MK Indy with a fireblade engine. It was at the lower end of your budget and has approx 130hp and it has proved a very reliable trackday toy. Thanks to a decent power to weight ratio (it weighs 489kg with all fluids and half a tank of fuel) it's also quick, here's a couple of vids from a few weeks ago at Cadwell:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RqNPOvFI-D8
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1lSgJU7GE5c
I'm also 6'2" and not small with it so the Indy was one of the few I felt comfortable in. If I was looking again I'd investigate an MNR or the new Indy chassis but there are much fewer of either on the s/h market.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RqNPOvFI-D8
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1lSgJU7GE5c
I'm also 6'2" and not small with it so the Indy was one of the few I felt comfortable in. If I was looking again I'd investigate an MNR or the new Indy chassis but there are much fewer of either on the s/h market.
At this end of the kit car market they don't do "models" as such. They try but in essence you pick your chassis, pick an engine and away you go. The MK Indy has had the same chassis for a while now with only minor upgrades so you are safe buying on condition rather than age. The MNR is being constantly refined (which is why I like it) so if you find one, have a chat with the manufacturer about it.
Get yourself over to www.locostbuilders.co.uk where there are some much more knowledgeable people than me who can help and some cars for sale.
Get yourself over to www.locostbuilders.co.uk where there are some much more knowledgeable people than me who can help and some cars for sale.
If you've got £3k to spend, consider a Robin Hood if Seven-esque motoring is the only way forward for you, but with the budget you have you could buy something that handles much better, is better built and weighs a lot less.
As mentioned, something like an MK Indy, a Locost derived kit or a Sylva / RAW Striker would be a much better bet, and you could even get a decent Westfield for the upper end of your budget.
The Striker is probably the best chassis but the cockpit is very narrow and I think, not as long as some, so may be an issue for you. All of them will be a league or two ahead of the RH on track though.
As to engines, if it is primarily for track driving then a bike engine may well suit you, 130bhp bike engines (fireblade etc) are approximately on par performance wise with ~170bhp (heavier) car engine'd kits, and as long as you pick your engine carefully, replacement engines if you needed them are cheap for the amount of performance you get. They are an acquired taste on the road though, and strict noise regs on certain circuits can be an issue unless it is silenced sufficiently, so they aren't for everyone.
As mentioned, something like an MK Indy, a Locost derived kit or a Sylva / RAW Striker would be a much better bet, and you could even get a decent Westfield for the upper end of your budget.
The Striker is probably the best chassis but the cockpit is very narrow and I think, not as long as some, so may be an issue for you. All of them will be a league or two ahead of the RH on track though.
As to engines, if it is primarily for track driving then a bike engine may well suit you, 130bhp bike engines (fireblade etc) are approximately on par performance wise with ~170bhp (heavier) car engine'd kits, and as long as you pick your engine carefully, replacement engines if you needed them are cheap for the amount of performance you get. They are an acquired taste on the road though, and strict noise regs on certain circuits can be an issue unless it is silenced sufficiently, so they aren't for everyone.
Edited by LocoBlade on Monday 6th August 14:00
Thanks for all this info gents.
I take it that in order of quality, power to weight and handling, I should be looking at:
Caterham
Westfield
MK Indy / RAW / MNR
Robin Hood
I'll start looking into the MK Indy / RAW and MNR models now. I'll also check out that website and get more familiar with the cars. Any more info welcome, forewarned is forearmed, etc, etc.
I take it that in order of quality, power to weight and handling, I should be looking at:
Caterham
Westfield
MK Indy / RAW / MNR
Robin Hood
I'll start looking into the MK Indy / RAW and MNR models now. I'll also check out that website and get more familiar with the cars. Any more info welcome, forewarned is forearmed, etc, etc.
zhead77 said:
Thanks for all this info gents.
I take it that in order of quality, power to weight and handling, I should be looking at:
Caterham
Westfield
MK Indy / RAW / MNR
Robin Hood
I'll start looking into the MK Indy / RAW and MNR models now. I'll also check out that website and get more familiar with the cars. Any more info welcome, forewarned is forearmed, etc, etc.
Ive not driven all of them, but from a combination of personal experience and comments on various forums, I think your list will vary depending on which of the bits you want to compare.I take it that in order of quality, power to weight and handling, I should be looking at:
Caterham
Westfield
MK Indy / RAW / MNR
Robin Hood
I'll start looking into the MK Indy / RAW and MNR models now. I'll also check out that website and get more familiar with the cars. Any more info welcome, forewarned is forearmed, etc, etc.
Quality Yep Id agree largely with your list although Id put MNR on a par with Westfield at least, having seen their good quality bodywork etc. A good proportion depends on the builder though, Ive seen Locosts that are better finished than Westfields even though the Westfield parts (especially GRP bodywork) are better quality than the Locost stuff available.
Handling relates a lot to how its set up, so there is no real "standard" of each one's handling. There's some Westfields that outhandle most Caterhams, there's even Locosts that handle better than the majority of Caterhams! Overall though Id still put Caterham and RAW top, closely followed by the rest other than Robin Hood which are a fair way behind from what Ive read.
Power to weight is tied to the engine rather than the marque, but considering your budget the list would be something like this:
Locost / MK
Robin Hood (assuming you can find one with a trick engine)
Westfield
Caterham
Simply because for £8k you are not going to get a powerful Caterham.
Although there are plenty of very fast well developed Westfields/Locosts etc, what you are getting with a Caterham is "out of the box" development and rapidity. Most of the fantastic handling Westies and Locosts have been heavily fettled by the owners. Whereas most R500s probably have not.
Caterham can go to Avon and say "Hey, build us a tyre" or to AVO and say "lets try every single damper you have". And it is that sort of development that your are paying for.
Whether or not that is "worth it" or not is a moot point.
I would agree with Locoblade, and lose Caterham from the list on the basis of budget and Robin Hood on percived quality and perhaps not as track focused. MK, RAW, STM (now Aries) all have well developed chassis and are regularly raced in RGB and the like. You could get a nice sorted car for you budget.
Caterham can go to Avon and say "Hey, build us a tyre" or to AVO and say "lets try every single damper you have". And it is that sort of development that your are paying for.
Whether or not that is "worth it" or not is a moot point.
I would agree with Locoblade, and lose Caterham from the list on the basis of budget and Robin Hood on percived quality and perhaps not as track focused. MK, RAW, STM (now Aries) all have well developed chassis and are regularly raced in RGB and the like. You could get a nice sorted car for you budget.
Yep, I agree that out of the box performance is a plus of the Caterham compared to most, hence putting it top of the list overall, just wanted to point out that with a decent setup you can get most into the same ballpark.
As a fairly good example, Ive got a "book" live axle'd Locost with an R1 bike engine in it, a chassis that some people on here tend to look down their nose at somewhat when compared to Westfields, Strikers etc (search for locost chassis and you'll probably find the old threads!).
The only significant upgrade to mine from "book" apart from the engine obviously, is a set of Nitron dampers and an LSD. I was at Cadwell the other week and from looking at my onboard video I appeared to achieve a sub 1m40s lap on Yoko A048s which is within a about 3 seconds of the outright 750MC RGB series (bike engine race series) lap record on the same tyres, and within a few tenths of the Class B record which my car would be eligible for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km0pMnaJrPA
As a fairly good example, Ive got a "book" live axle'd Locost with an R1 bike engine in it, a chassis that some people on here tend to look down their nose at somewhat when compared to Westfields, Strikers etc (search for locost chassis and you'll probably find the old threads!).
The only significant upgrade to mine from "book" apart from the engine obviously, is a set of Nitron dampers and an LSD. I was at Cadwell the other week and from looking at my onboard video I appeared to achieve a sub 1m40s lap on Yoko A048s which is within a about 3 seconds of the outright 750MC RGB series (bike engine race series) lap record on the same tyres, and within a few tenths of the Class B record which my car would be eligible for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km0pMnaJrPA
Thanks for all the info, i've got a few cars to see this weekend and will update with my (novice) thoughts.
I understand the difference of buying a Caterham but sadly, my track day toy budget can't stretch that far and I know if I bought a cheap old one, I'd always hanker for the more recent and more powerful versions.
Thanks again for the info and opinions, it helps to narrow down the choices.
I understand the difference of buying a Caterham but sadly, my track day toy budget can't stretch that far and I know if I bought a cheap old one, I'd always hanker for the more recent and more powerful versions.
Thanks again for the info and opinions, it helps to narrow down the choices.
don't dwell too much on the outright power. I had a 100bhp graduate caterham for a couple of years and it was great fun. given the choice i'd still take a 100bhp £8K caterham over a 200bhp £8K westfield - and driven by the same person there wouldn't be a massive difference in the performance either.
Jonny
BaT
Jonny
BaT
Does'nt seem to have been mentioned yet but what about a Tiger? i had a super 6 for 2 years with a 2.1 pinto lump in it we got it to run to near on 140bhp. I was at bedford on monday for a track day and a guy had a tiger B6 bike engined car which was pretty quick and kept up with all the other caterham type cars.
another one here for caterham.
I had one that I sold to a mate for £8k that was just as good to drive & just about as quick against the stop watch as my r300 spec superlight.
I have only ever driven one westfield & it was / is horrible by comparison even though it has allegedly 40 bhp more than my car.
I know of one westfield that I would consider owning and I also know how much effort has gone into trying to make it handle like a caterham.
I personally wouldn't consider anything else in the 7 alike group but I do accept there is the odd good one out there.
Flame away.
I had one that I sold to a mate for £8k that was just as good to drive & just about as quick against the stop watch as my r300 spec superlight.
I have only ever driven one westfield & it was / is horrible by comparison even though it has allegedly 40 bhp more than my car.
I know of one westfield that I would consider owning and I also know how much effort has gone into trying to make it handle like a caterham.
I personally wouldn't consider anything else in the 7 alike group but I do accept there is the odd good one out there.
Flame away.
RMac said:
I know of one westfield that I would consider owning and I also know how much effort has gone into trying to make it handle like a caterham.
You must be referring to the RACE CAR DOCTOR! http://www.racecardoctor.co.uk
You say Caterham copies, but caterham copied Lotus and eventually bought the rights for building it.
I know of 2 very well sorted Westfields for racing, he has a 240bhp one and a 300bhp, stupidly quick can beat a 612bhp Fiesta Cosworth and a Porsche Cup car in a straight fight at Knockhill in the lower powered one.
I also know of a Caterham Cosworth that races, that too can take the fight to the GT cars, they aren't as quick as say a Radical SR3 etc. They are flawed aerodynamically so you'd be lucky to get 140 out of one.
I know of 2 very well sorted Westfields for racing, he has a 240bhp one and a 300bhp, stupidly quick can beat a 612bhp Fiesta Cosworth and a Porsche Cup car in a straight fight at Knockhill in the lower powered one.
I also know of a Caterham Cosworth that races, that too can take the fight to the GT cars, they aren't as quick as say a Radical SR3 etc. They are flawed aerodynamically so you'd be lucky to get 140 out of one.
notsogreedy said:
Does'nt seem to have been mentioned yet but what about a Tiger? i had a super 6 for 2 years with a 2.1 pinto lump in it we got it to run to near on 140bhp. I was at bedford on monday for a track day and a guy had a tiger B6 bike engined car which was pretty quick and kept up with all the other caterham type cars.
I have a Tiger Super six with a brand new 2.1 litre 160BHP pinto lump. I have done a novice track day at Brands Hatch and the car was great. Nothing overheated, only myself, unlike some cars and handles great.by the way its in the classified ads!!!
Dave
at £8k you should get a decent westy or a very well sorted Mk or simmlar ,Ive looked around mnr"s workshop and was also very impressed with the design and build of there cars, Just a thought but If its track use I would also look at radicals, I dont think you can go faster for the money.
I would have to disagree with couple of the caterham comments made , Ive owned half a dozen westys now mostly bec and just by getting them corner weighted and ride height correct they handle really well. my last Megabusa would pretty much out handle and out perform anything It came up against on track, in 2 years and 6,000 miles on track it was never overtaken by a caterham it regularily outperformed csr" 260 s / atom"s etc despite it only being 1300cc and 170bhp,so for someone to say westfields dont handle I find quite bizzare .I was a Cadwell in my new westy (bec) couple of weeks ago and it was lapping in the 1.36"s so it must handle something like
!
I would urge anyone to have a go in any seven styled car irrelevant of what badge it has that has been set up correctly for track there isnt a lot to call beteween any of them when set up and driven right, aerocars like radicals/xtr"s are another story
I would have to disagree with couple of the caterham comments made , Ive owned half a dozen westys now mostly bec and just by getting them corner weighted and ride height correct they handle really well. my last Megabusa would pretty much out handle and out perform anything It came up against on track, in 2 years and 6,000 miles on track it was never overtaken by a caterham it regularily outperformed csr" 260 s / atom"s etc despite it only being 1300cc and 170bhp,so for someone to say westfields dont handle I find quite bizzare .I was a Cadwell in my new westy (bec) couple of weeks ago and it was lapping in the 1.36"s so it must handle something like
!I would urge anyone to have a go in any seven styled car irrelevant of what badge it has that has been set up correctly for track there isnt a lot to call beteween any of them when set up and driven right, aerocars like radicals/xtr"s are another story
Edited by JeffC on Thursday 9th August 20:04
Hammer Zeit said:
You say Caterham copies, but caterham copied Lotus and eventually bought the rights for building it.
Not even close!"Caterham Cars had been a major Lotus dealer during the 60's, and its founder, Graham Nearn, purchased the rights to continue manufacture of the Seven design from Chapman in 1973, after Lotus announced their intention to discontinue the model. Caterham initially restarted manufacture of the Lotus Seven Series 4, however when this proved unpopular production switched to a Series 3 model in 1974."
source: wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterham_Cars
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