Nurburgring & Insurance

[R1 Loon]

Fireblade & Noger. The example I posted was to show that some insurers have been burnt with claims and choose to make it specific, not to close the issue once and for all.

I would still emphasise the point that Law is often around spirit not letter of what was written. Few insurers actually refuse to pay claims, despite the urban myth to the contrary. They rarely wriggle out of things unless there is a clear intent to defraud at inception. However, do not be fooled into thinking that an insurance policy covers everything unless it's specifically excluded.

In reality they cover most things at best. The fact that we're having this discussion demonstrates that there is sufficient "grey" in the discussion so that it could go either way and that includes court costs too. Don;t forget that going to court doesn't guarantee a win, as both sides in a court case have a strong convictionthat they are right - one f you has to be wrong.

The reality is that you're gambling with something of value, so either accept you can afford the loss, buy full cover separately for absolute certainty or better still don't crash.

[Fireblade69]

It looks like there is no cover as my insurers have stated earlier, (as mentioned), that it was not their intent. I've got the broker on the case for alternative options such as temporary increase in excess and removal of personal liability on my vehicle. I don't mind spanking mine and loosing but don't want anyone else to lose out because of me. I'm just limiting my liability but as someone pointed out, if i'm risking 10 bags of my own cash, I'm less likely to spank it on purpose.

Noger, nice post mate, appreciate the effort and to everyone else, thanks as well. Much appreciated.

Still more to come.........

[agtlaw]

Noger said:

If the policy excludes "The Nordschleife" is this valid ? IMSHO Yes, it is perfectly valid. And Wikipedia is wrong, if that is where people are turning, although I suspect they are relying on the information from Leeds Solicitors. I have already pointed out the flaw in their argument, in that under EU legislation, "place" is not something that is null as an exclusion for TP liability purposes. The idea that an insurer has to cover any liability in the EU is incorrect I feel. I still think there is an outstanding question with regards Personal Injury claims, in that the injured party has a right of direct recourse to the Insurer (and even then the insurer still has all the defence available to the insured, such as "It wasn't their fault").

noger's opinion is not an opinion shared by the Ombudsman. its also not shared by me. i've deal with several contentious nurburgring claims and when i give an opinion it is based on experience; rather than speculation. i'm afraid that the aforementioned demonstrates a very limited understanding of the law. its very obvious that he isn't a lawyer.

if you're looking for advice on these matters then you can place your trust in a professional who specialises in motoring law with a proven track record and experience of these cases. or, ask an internet "expert" with no experience of these cases but with the arrogance to suggest that he knows better. your choice.

i could quote chapter and verse here but i'm not going to do that of course. if you need advice then consult me privately.

www.leeds-solicitors.com

[R1 Loon]

agtlaw said:

noger's opinion is not an opinion shared by the Ombudsman. its also not shared by me. i've deal with several contentious nurburgring claims and when i give an opinion it is based on experience; rather than speculation. i'm afraid that the aforementioned demonstrates a very limited understanding of the law. its very obvious that he isn't a lawyer.

if you're looking for advice on these matters then you can place your trust in a professional who specialises in motoring law with a proven track record and experience of these cases. or, ask an internet "expert" with no experience of these cases but with the arrogance to suggest that he knows better. your choice.

i could quote chapter and verse here but i'm not going to do that of course. if you need advice then consult me privately.

www.leeds-solicitors.com

Whether or not you've won a case on this is of little relevance in the real world though and I'm amazed that you choose to perpetuate the myth that "All will be OK".

Firstly, you win irrepsective of outcome, as you will always receive your fees for this. However, the individual concerned may not be in a position to afford your fees, or they may be economically unviable for them.

Secondly the time it will take to resolve it, is time that the "victim" is without a car or funds to buy one, which may not be practical for them.

I stand by the fact that if you intend to do something that may put you in a position where you are relying on legal arguments to resolve the matter for you, then you are better off mitigating the risk (via clear insurance terms) or not taking the course of action.

Reliance on the Legal syatem in this country should be the last resort, not something people should turn to as a first resort.

[Noger]

agtlaw said:

Noger said:

If the policy excludes "The Nordschleife" is this valid ? IMSHO Yes, it is perfectly valid. And Wikipedia is wrong, if that is where people are turning, although I suspect they are relying on the information from Leeds Solicitors. I have already pointed out the flaw in their argument, in that under EU legislation, "place" is not something that is null as an exclusion for TP liability purposes. The idea that an insurer has to cover any liability in the EU is incorrect I feel. I still think there is an outstanding question with regards Personal Injury claims, in that the injured party has a right of direct recourse to the Insurer (and even then the insurer still has all the defence available to the insured, such as "It wasn't their fault").

noger's opinion is not an opinion shared by the Ombudsman. its also not shared by me. i've deal with several contentious nurburgring claims and when i give an opinion it is based on experience; rather than speculation. i'm afraid that the aforementioned demonstrates a very limited understanding of the law. its very obvious that he isn't a lawyer.

if you're looking for advice on these matters then you can place your trust in a professional who specialises in motoring law with a proven track record and experience of these cases. or, ask an internet "expert" with no experience of these cases but with the arrogance to suggest that he knows better. your choice.

i could quote chapter and verse here but i'm not going to do that of course. if you need advice then consult me privately.

www.leeds-solicitors.com

No, of course I am not a lawyer. I have worked in the Motor Insurance industry, specialising in Claims mostly, for 15 years. My opinion is that crystalised from experience and talking to many underwriters and legal advisors. So of course it is biased towards the insurer viewpoint. Afterall, it wouldn't be at the FOS if we agreed

I have no other agenda (cough) other than as a Pistonhead and occasional Ring user

Glad to see you have updated your website to correctly identify the FOS from the FSA as I suggested on the other thread (although you still have a rogue FSO in there) , a "professional who specialises in motoring law with a proven track record and experience" would look a bit of Charlie if they didn't even know the regulator's name

I still have an issue with the bit about the RTA and void exclusions, but no doubt most would be picked up by the insurer under Article 75 as this mentions the EU as well ? So is your view that in all cases the Insurer would act for the MIB ? Even for damage to Armco ? Even without an unsatisfied judgement ?

It just seems a crying shame that you won't share your knowledge for the benefit of others. I have presented what I think is the Insurer viewpoint, if we could contrast that with the Insureds view that you no doubt represent, we could get a clearer picture ?

Seems bad news for us though. So whilst they may be forced to cough up, we still might have to pay it back. Whatever the mechanism, that isn't something that seems a good thing.

Oh well, I await the FOS proclamation with interest. Insurers have certainly heard nothing about this so far from them.

[Fireblade69]

It looks like no dice from the insurer on this. They have stipulated that they would consider the Nordschleife a track and it looks like Nurburgring GmBH agree with them!

"Hello again,

the Nordschleife is a race track but you have to follow the road traffic regulations.

If you should require any further information please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards

Sabrina Berresheim
Ihr welcome°center"

However, the German road cozzers are looking into it for me as well and have responded with a holding email, (Thank you for your email, team can you look into this on behalf of Mr fireblade blah blah blah). Gotta say, didn't really expect an email from the Federal Ministry of Transport so I'm very happy they're looking into it.

At the moment it looks like the ring taxi, a Miss Daisy lap and some pax loving only :-(

You know what, I might not go.

[mrmr96]

Fireblade69 said:

At the moment it looks like the ring taxi, a Miss Daisy lap and some pax loving only :-(

You know what, I might not go.

That sucks. But it sucks less than having your whole life turned over following an uninsured injury accident. I still think you've done the right thing looking into it as you have as I'm sure you'd rather press the point now, while there's nothing at stake, than after an accident when you've a LOT to lose.

As an aisde, have you looked into whether there are any companies which can do standalone insurance for you on a TF day?

[Munter]

Fireblade69 said:

It looks like no dice from the insurer on this. They have stipulated that they would consider the Nordschleife a track and it looks like Nurburgring GmBH agree with them!

"Hello again,

the Nordschleife is a race track but you have to follow the road traffic regulations.

If you should require any further information please do not hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards

Sabrina Berresheim
Ihr welcome°center"

However, the German road cozzers are looking into it for me as well and have responded with a holding email, (Thank you for your email, team can you look into this on behalf of Mr fireblade blah blah blah). Gotta say, didn't really expect an email from the Federal Ministry of Transport so I'm very happy they're looking into it.

At the moment it looks like the ring taxi, a Miss Daisy lap and some pax loving only :-(

You know what, I might not go.

you could contact rsr and rent. One of their alfa's shared between two people seems a good deal to me.

[Fireblade69]

"You could contact rsr and rent. One of their alfa's shared between two people seems a good deal to me."

Yeah, but Dale's left now. No more mate's rates.

[tertius]

Fireblade69 said:

"You could contact rsr and rent. One of their alfa's shared between two people seems a good deal to me."

Yeah, but Dale's left now. No more mate's rates.

You could hang on and see what his new venture can offer ... announcement tomorrow I believe.

[Munter]

tertius said:

Fireblade69 said:

"You could contact rsr and rent. One of their alfa's shared between two people seems a good deal to me."

Yeah, but Dale's left now. No more mate's rates.

You could hang on and see what his new venture can offer ... announcement tomorrow I believe.

Ah ha. I was about to ask where he had gone. Never met the guy but he gets a good write up.

[B16JUS]

tertius said:

Fireblade69 said:

"You could contact rsr and rent. One of their alfa's shared between two people seems a good deal to me."

Yeah, but Dale's left now. No more mate's rates.

You could hang on and see what his new venture can offer ... announcement tomorrow I believe.

Any more info on the new venture ?

[rossm]

B16JUS said:

tertius said:

Fireblade69 said:

"You could contact rsr and rent. One of their alfa's shared between two people seems a good deal to me."

Yeah, but Dale's left now. No more mate's rates.

You could hang on and see what his new venture can offer ... announcement tomorrow I believe.

Any more info on the new venture ?

Not updated yet

http://www.btgmotorsports.com/

[NurburgringDale]

Alright... alright... website is now update! Our cars are insured properly and we have the best value at the 'ring too...

This insurance thing is a pain in the butt, to be honest. I've not got cover on my own MX5 anymore for TF and can only do the trackdays... next is the DN event on the 23rd BTW...

[fergus]

Following a detailed letter to the technical underwriters, I now have confirmation of 1st party cover. I have been promised written confirmation of this.

However, upon relaying this info back to my broker he said that although my policy (11 months to run) is still valid, the insurer (owned by RBS) pulled out of the non commercial market on 1st Aug, as there model didn't fit with the other non specialist offerings within the RBS stable, etc.... They won't issue any more private motor policies.

I've now got details of the guys underwriting the proposed new scheme to will approach them in due course. Until I get a yay or nay from the new guys, I'm not going to jepordise my chances by declaring names, etc.

[Fireblade69]

fergus said:

Following a detailed letter to the technical underwriters, I now have confirmation of 1st party cover. I have been promised written confirmation of this.

However, upon relaying this info back to my broker he said that although my policy (11 months to run) is still valid, the insurer (owned by RBS) pulled out of the non commercial market on 1st Aug, as there model didn't fit with the other non specialist offerings within the RBS stable, etc.... They won't issue any more private motor policies.

I've now got details of the guys underwriting the proposed new scheme to will approach them in due course. Until I get a yay or nay from the new guys, I'm not going to jepordise my chances by declaring names, etc.

Nice!

As soon as you get it, please feel free to blab like a mofo

[Fireblade69]

Bad news. I contacted both the Nurburgring owners and the German ministry responsible for roads and they have both responded.

---

Nurburgring GmBH:

"The Nordschleife is a race track but you have to follow the road traffic regulations."

---

MINISTERIUM FÜR WIRTSCHAFT, VERKEHR, LANDWIRTSCHAFT UND WEINBAU RHEINLAND-PFALZ (Ministry of Economy, Transport, Agriculture & Wine)

The letter was in German but I had it translated by a German colleague and it basically says the same thing. Although the police consider it a race track they enforce the law on it as a special circumstance. You must follow normal road laws which include the same rules as on the Autobahn, i.e. you should only go as fast as it is safe to do so and you can stop in the distance you can see. Anyone involved in an accident that can be shown to have breached this will be considered to be at fault as a matter of course.

---

So, this whole exercise has shown that if you're not specifically covered in writing, you're taking one big risk and the insurers *may* come after you for the money if they are forced to pay out. There are policies out there which allow you to drive under TF rules, some of which impose higher excesses. I've not found one yet as anyone on this forum that has one, is keeping well quiet about it in case the insurers notice!

Looks like the track car is going on the trailer and being dropped of at Spa Francorchamps whilst I go and watch/taxi/pax love/BTG Motorsport Rent-a-Car it up.

Cock! (I'm still doing a lap in the Audi but I'll be driving Miss Daisy!)

[Soovy]

Bad news for all concerned, but I did say this about ten pages back. I'd have been quite pleased to be wrong to be honest.

If you are not covered in your policy for the Ring SPECIFICALLY IN WRITING (i.e. the policy terms state "you are insured for TF days at the Nurburgring" you have to assume that you are NOT insured, and that any payments out made by your insurer will be recovered from you by them through the Courts. You might be lucky and get away with it, but insurers are not renowned as charitable organisations, are they?

Sadly this means I am not prepared to risk it again.

Edited by Soovy on Sunday 15th August 10:47

[Noger]

for your investigations.

[agtlaw]

website updated with Ombudsman's August 2010 decision: http://www.leeds-solicitors.com/nurburgring_insura...