Track Day Tyres to be Outlawed?

[RacingPete]

I have just been skimming through the latest copy of Evo and noticed they have an article on new legislation which may mean the end to track day tyres by Nov 2012. This isn't something that I had picked up on the radar.

The article says new legislation on tyre labelling and accompanying minimum standards to be introduced in November 2012 will effectively end the production of road-legal track day tyres.

Example tyres affected: Dunlop Direzza, Toyo 888, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup and Avon ACB10.

The legislation sets that all road legal tyres will have to display rating figures for rolling resistance, external noise and wet grip... with minimum levels to be met (which is where they think the specialist rubber will be affected)

I have some Dunlop 01J that I use for track days and around the 'ring and have found them to have really good grip in the wet, better than my road tyres (as long as there isn't deep puddles to clear)... so is this just journalistic hype, or should I be worried the end of decent grippy road tyres is coming to an end?

[shawn 968cs]

If this does comes in, I'm glad I can get a spare set of wheel's /tyres and a jack in the back of my car.
Probably will mean a lot of people having to trailer their car to the circuit in future.
This will probably have a bit of a knock on effect to the track day industry.

[dhutch]

It will be interesting to see anyway.
- I dont have the money to stock up on trackday rubber and it doesnt keep for ever anyway so if does come it will shall just have to see.

A lot of the kitcars including mine are running on Toyo R888 and Yoko A048's which are road legal semi slicks. However with the light car the soft rubber gives good grip on the road in both wet and dry conditions. And to be honest, it doesnt matter what you have on it will aquaplane if theres standing water.


Daniel

[jon-]

Has it something to do with this?

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Low-Rolling-R...

Last I heard, there was discussions about having an "average" score across the range, a lot like the EU are doing with the CO2 output for car manufacturers.

I'll do some digging next week and write up something if I can.

[Dave^]

shawn 968cs said:

This will probably have a bit of a knock on effect to the track day industry.

i can't imagine people point blankly not doing a track day cos they have to use road tyres....

[T89 Callan]

Companies will still sell the tyres just list them as "for track use only" to cover themselves and people will still buy them. Look at the amount of "show use only" number plates that are used on road?
I doubt it will change anything, if companies like Dunlop are making money from these tyres then they won't stop making them.

[muckymotor]

I don't think it would be a bad idea to outlaw track specific tyres on track days, some people treat the day waaaaaaaay too seriously.

Lights blue touch paper...

[jon-]

T89 Callan said:

Companies will still sell the tyres just list them as "for track use only" to cover themselves and people will still buy them. Look at the amount of "show use only" number plates that are used on road?
I doubt it will change anything, if companies like Dunlop are making money from these tyres then they won't stop making them.

This in itself has implications. If the tyres aren't road legal, you can't drive them to the track, so you need a second set of wheels and to go through the hassle of changing everything over when you get to a track.

For what it's worth, I did a back to back road vs track tyre day for an article and surprisingly, I enjoyed the road tyres much more.

I'll link it once i've finished editing it.

[Toltec]

jon- said:

For what it's worth, I did a back to back road vs track tyre day for an article and surprisingly, I enjoyed the road tyres much more.

We found the TVR tended to overheat road tyres so tried R888s, they are good and do not melt, but perhaps provide too much grip making the car feel underpowered on the exit of bends. I was thinking of trying some of the hard compound Kumho's to get something that would hold up to track use, but not give too much grip. Did you find any road tyres that held up well for track use?

Edited by Toltec on Friday 19th June 15:30

[jon-]

Toltec said:

jon- said:

For what it's worth, I did a back to back road vs track tyre day for an article and surprisingly, I enjoyed the road tyres much more.

We found the TVR tended to overheat road tyres so tryed R888s, they are good and do not melt, but perhaps provide too much grip making the car feel underpowered on the exit of bends. I was thinking of trying some of the hard compound Kumho's to get something that would hold up to track use, but not give too much grip. Did you find any road tyres that held up well for track use?

What road tyres were you trying? The Toyo T1R that seems to be on a lot of TVRs doesn't take kindly to track work on high powered cars.

One of my favourite track tyres is the Bridgestone RE040. The sidewalls are super hard for great feedback and feel, and they take a lot of abuse. Unfortunately they're not cheap, and if you get caught on a wet trackday it's going to be interesting.

[Toltec]

jon- said:

What road tyres were you trying? The Toyo T1R that seems to be on a lot of TVRs doesn't take kindly to track work on high powered cars.

One of my favourite track tyres is the Bridgestone RE040. The sidewalls are super hard for great feedback and feel, and they take a lot of abuse. Unfortunately they're not cheap, and if you get caught on a wet trackday it's going to be interesting.

Yep, T1R is right, they seem to be the only performance tyre you can get in the sorts of size needed (225/45/16, 225/50/15 or similar), the RE040 is not available in the right size. I like Bridgestones too, had a set of RE720s on the 350i that worked nicely and the current 400SE still has a pair of S01s on the front set of road wheels, these are now pretty much dead though.

Sorry, do not mean to turn this into a "what tyre" thread Just raising the point that track day tyres are about more than getting maximum grip, the suitability for the use is also important.

Edited by Toltec on Friday 19th June 16:03

[jon-]

Toltec said:

jon- said:

What road tyres were you trying? The Toyo T1R that seems to be on a lot of TVRs doesn't take kindly to track work on high powered cars.

One of my favourite track tyres is the Bridgestone RE040. The sidewalls are super hard for great feedback and feel, and they take a lot of abuse. Unfortunately they're not cheap, and if you get caught on a wet trackday it's going to be interesting.

Yep, T1R is right, they seem to be the only performance tyre you can get in the sorts of size needed (16" 225/45 or similar), the RE040 is not available in the right size. I like Bridgestones too, had a set of RE720s on the 350i that worked nicely and the current 400SE still has a pair of S01s on the front set of road wheels, these are now pretty much dead though.

Sorry, do not mean to turn this into a "what tyre" thread Just raising the point that track day tyres are about more than getting maximum grip, the suitability for the use is also important.

If you're lucky you might still be able to find a few sets of Bridgestone S02s in that size (i've some in my garage for my sins), these have to be the ultimate road bias track tyre, I love them!

[mmm-five]

Hopefully this will mean the end of ditchfinder tyres mascarading as high-performance budget tyres - you know the ones...Avon ZZ3, Linglong Feyndadeetch, etc.

[T89 Callan]

jon- said:

T89 Callan said:

Companies will still sell the tyres just list them as "for track use only" to cover themselves and people will still buy them. Look at the amount of "show use only" number plates that are used on road?
I doubt it will change anything, if companies like Dunlop are making money from these tyres then they won't stop making them.

This in itself has implications. If the tyres aren't road legal, you can't drive them to the track, so you need a second set of wheels and to go through the hassle of changing everything over when you get to a track.

For what it's worth, I did a back to back road vs track tyre day for an article and surprisingly, I enjoyed the road tyres much more.

I'll link it once i've finished editing it.

The point I was making (rather poorly) was that people will still use them on the road to get to track days, there are thousands and thousands of people driving around with illegal plates, illegal modifications, illegal wheel offsets, illegal lights etc etc etc. As long as you don't get stopped and fully inspected you're O.K.

Also most track cars (except Radicals and such like) will easily hold take a spare set of wheels in the back.

[Herman Toothrot]

jon- said:

T89 Callan said:

Companies will still sell the tyres just list them as "for track use only" to cover themselves and people will still buy them. Look at the amount of "show use only" number plates that are used on road?
I doubt it will change anything, if companies like Dunlop are making money from these tyres then they won't stop making them.

This in itself has implications. If the tyres aren't road legal, you can't drive them to the track, so you need a second set of wheels and to go through the hassle of changing everything over when you get to a track.

For what it's worth, I did a back to back road vs track tyre day for an article and surprisingly, I enjoyed the road tyres much more.

I'll link it once i've finished editing it.

I've just got in from my 1st trackday on R888's I always had Bridgestone road tyes ont he car before. I feel the R888's only gave minimal extra grip but didn't melt and were far more progressive than the road tyres. The Bridgestones I had before would hold on the suddenly let go, the R888's you just feel the car gently starting to move and are far more predictable.

[pdw]

T89 Callan said:

The point I was making (rather poorly) was that people will still use them on the road to get to track days, there are thousands and thousands of people driving around with illegal plates, illegal modifications, illegal wheel offsets, illegal lights etc etc etc. As long as you don't get stopped and fully inspected you're O.K.

Illegal tyres are a rather different game. Illegal plates are £30 and a promise to get them sorted. Illegal tyres are up to £2500 and 3 points. Per tyre.

T89 Callan said:

Also most track cars (except Radicals and such like) will easily hold take a spare set of wheels in the back.

Umm... my M Coupe will *just* fit two wheels in the boot, and that's a big, practical boot by sports car standards. Anything even slightly pointy is not going to fit four.

I've got a roof rack for carrying track wheels. Means I don't have to worry about hitting a puddle on the way home, and I can happily run the R888s past the legal limit.

Paul

[# Lord Lucan #]

oh well back to the old days of a set of slicks filling the car and changing before going on the track what a farce

[handpaper]

muckymotor said:

I don't think it would be a bad idea to outlaw track specific tyres on track days, some people treat the day waaaaaaaay too seriously.

Lights blue touch paper...

The main advantage of track-day tyres isn't outright grip, but tolerance of higher stresses and temperatures that would ruin road rubber in minutes. My Kumho Ecsta MX track tyres are fully treaded and have the same traction and wear ratings as the Federal Super Steels I use on the road - the difference is that the track tyres won't overheat and disintegrate after a couple of 'Ring laps or a ten-minute trackday session.

That said, I think this is a case where the Government need to fk off and find something better to do (or just fk off, that suits me too ). People who use R888s and similar are usually the sort to know what they can and can't do.

[T89 Callan]

pdw said:

T89 Callan said:

The point I was making (rather poorly) was that people will still use them on the road to get to track days, there are thousands and thousands of people driving around with illegal plates, illegal modifications, illegal wheel offsets, illegal lights etc etc etc. As long as you don't get stopped and fully inspected you're O.K.

Illegal tyres are a rather different game. Illegal plates are £30 and a promise to get them sorted. Illegal tyres are up to £2500 and 3 points. Per tyre.

T89 Callan said:

Also most track cars (except Radicals and such like) will easily hold take a spare set of wheels in the back.

Umm... my M Coupe will *just* fit two wheels in the boot, and that's a big, practical boot by sports car standards. Anything even slightly pointy is not going to fit four.

I've got a roof rack for carrying track wheels. Means I don't have to worry about hitting a puddle on the way home, and I can happily run the R888s past the legal limit.

Paul

Alright calm your arse down.

Most and I mean most cars I see at track days are stripped out hatchbacks and saloons that can easily carry a set of wheels.

[flemke]

RacingPete said:

I have just been skimming through the latest copy of Evo and noticed they have an article on new legislation which may mean the end to track day tyres by Nov 2012. This isn't something that I had picked up on the radar.

The article says new legislation on tyre labelling and accompanying minimum standards to be introduced in November 2012 will effectively end the production of road-legal track day tyres.

Example tyres affected: Dunlop Direzza, Toyo 888, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup and Avon ACB10.

The legislation sets that all road legal tyres will have to display rating figures for rolling resistance, external noise and wet grip... with minimum levels to be met (which is where they think the specialist rubber will be affected)

I have some Dunlop 01J that I use for track days and around the 'ring and have found them to have really good grip in the wet, better than my road tyres (as long as there isn't deep puddles to clear)... so is this just journalistic hype, or should I be worried the end of decent grippy road tyres is coming to an end?

One wonders how the potential regulation would treat a road car that came with such tyres as factory-fitted original equipment.
Then there are the one-offs. What if the bespoke Michelin tyres for the Veyron, for example, do not comply with the new standards? There is no other tyre manufactured that will fit the car.