Wrap around road legal harnesses?

[Herman Toothrot]

I'm in the process of having a full cage with harness bar welded in my MX5, I had clip in harnesses before and now need to go wrap around the harness bar. I can't seem to find any that are suitable? The closest type I can find are Elise / Exige specific ones? Any suggestions?

[TheLurker]

Are wrap around harnesses not road legal then?

[Herman Toothrot]

Road legal has to have a push button, most harnesses don't have a button so are not road legal.

Not road legal :-

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Harnesses...

Road legal :-

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Harnesses...

[GC8]

'Good harness' and 'road legal' are mutually exclusive. Id suggest that you use the fitted three point belts for the road; and proper rotary buckle harnesses off road.

[tertius]

Herman Toothrot said:

Road legal has to have a push button, most harnesses don't have a button so are not road legal.

Not road legal :-

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Harnesses...

Road legal :-

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Harnesses...

When you say road legal I assume you mean "will pass an MoT"?

The relevant MoT requirement is only that the "belts" be E marked. However, the only E marked belts seem to be those with the push button buckle. I don't think the "wrap around" element makes any difference.

AS GC8 suggests, can you not retain the inertia reel belts and then have whichever harnesses you like? Inertia reel belts are far preferable on the road anyway.

[Mroad]

I think the requirements for ECE standards are that the seat belt release has to operated by only one hand. Turn knob or lever style should in theory fail the standard as you are supposed to use two hands to undo them (one hand to stop the buckle twisting). If the belt doesn't have a standard mark then it should fail the MOT, having said that I don't know how Jap imports get around this, I guess because they were previously SVA'ed? (I should know as I did have a jap import!)
Anyway having said that, whether it passes or not depends on the MOT station you take it to.
I've had a couple of track cars which only have turn lever/buckle harnesses and they have passed with no issues.
If you are worried then just keep the original inertia reel belts installed for testing purposes.
I strongly recommend that you never use an inertia reel belt if you have a cage with bars in front of the driver!

As for the MX5 issue then you need a sports car style harness with rear roll bar fittings.
Something like this will do (link below) although I thought they used to do a shorter rear strap version, it should still work though.
http://www.sabelt.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.produc...

[whiteonyx]

in this months KIT CAR magazine, it says that SVA/IVA tests now pass FIA spec belts fitted in cars.

[Herman Toothrot]

I'm not saying wrap around has anything to do with if they are road legal, its finding the combination of MOT acceptable release AND wrap around, all that seems to be about are the Exige / Elise ones.

To the comment about road legal and good harnesses being mutually exclusive, how do you work that out when the only difference is the release?

[chrisr29]

If you're going to the trouble of having a cage welded in why not have some propper eyelets fitted into the floor for clip-on type fixings? I have these in my Primera track car with a push button type harness - works really well.

Regarding legality of turn buckle type belts, the Megane r26.r has them and that's sold as a road going car.

[Herman Toothrot]

chrisr29 said:

If you're going to the trouble of having a cage welded in why not have some propper eyelets fitted into the floor for clip-on type fixings? I have these in my Primera track car with a push button type harness - works really well.

Regarding legality of turn buckle type belts, the Megane r26.r has them and that's sold as a road going car.

I have eyelets on the floor but the guy doing the cage advised getting wrap around to attach for the shoulder straps.

Interesting regards the megane. If you browse demon tweeks the have basicaly the same harnesses but only difference the buckle/ release and the ones with button are listed as road going the aero style as race only.

[benny.c]

My 964 only has four point harnesses with lever type releases. No problem with the MOT, but maybe that's because they can be easily released with one hand.

[flemke]

Herman Toothrot said:

chrisr29 said:

If you're going to the trouble of having a cage welded in why not have some propper eyelets fitted into the floor for clip-on type fixings? I have these in my Primera track car with a push button type harness - works really well.

Regarding legality of turn buckle type belts, the Megane r26.r has them and that's sold as a road going car.

I have eyelets on the floor but the guy doing the cage advised getting wrap around to attach for the shoulder straps.

Interesting regards the megane. If you browse demon tweeks the have basicaly the same harnesses but only difference the buckle/ release and the ones with button are listed as road going the aero style as race only.

For the shoulder harnesses, it is critical that the angle of the webbing from the mounting point to where they first make contact with the seat-back/driver's shoulders not be too steep. You can't mount them on the floor behind the seat. In some cars it is possible to locate them in the parcel shelf area.
Shoulder harnesses that wrap around a horizontal cage bar are totally fine, and are used in numerous factory racing cars. They are no less "proper" than using eyebolts.

[Herman Toothrot]

Yes, aware that the shoulder strap angle is important, when refering to eyebolts that was for the other attachment points, lap straps.

[Herman Toothrot]

Mroad said:

If you are worried then just keep the original inertia reel belts installed for testing purposes.
I strongly recommend that you never use an inertia reel belt if you have a cage with bars in front of the driver!

As for the MX5 issue then you need a sports car style harness with rear roll bar fittings.
Something like this will do (link below) although I thought they used to do a shorter rear strap version, it should still work though.
http://www.sabelt.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.produc...

Yes, its a full cage so harnesses only. The cage won't allow use of the OEM belts. The link to the sabelt harness is basically what I want, just with a push button

[chrisr29]

flemke said:

Herman Toothrot said:

chrisr29 said:

If you're going to the trouble of having a cage welded in why not have some propper eyelets fitted into the floor for clip-on type fixings? I have these in my Primera track car with a push button type harness - works really well.

Regarding legality of turn buckle type belts, the Megane r26.r has them and that's sold as a road going car.

I have eyelets on the floor but the guy doing the cage advised getting wrap around to attach for the shoulder straps.

Interesting regards the megane. If you browse demon tweeks the have basicaly the same harnesses but only difference the buckle/ release and the ones with button are listed as road going the aero style as race only.

For the shoulder harnesses, it is critical that the angle of the webbing from the mounting point to where they first make contact with the seat-back/driver's shoulders not be too steep. You can't mount them on the floor behind the seat. In some cars it is possible to locate them in the parcel shelf area.
Shoulder harnesses that wrap around a horizontal cage bar are totally fine, and are used in numerous factory racing cars. They are no less "proper" than using eyebolts.

Hmmmm, never thought about it. Mine were fitted when I aquired the car. The shoulder harnesses are mounted on eyelets fitted to the floor but way back in the car on the raised part where the rear seat base would usually be. Not sure what the angle is but it's pretty shallow. The lap part is mounted on eyelets fitted on the floor, just behind the drivers seat. It's never been an issue come MOT time so I just accepted it as being ok.

If it's any interest to the op they're made by Sparco and are 4 point with a push button type buckle.

[tertius]

Bear in mind that diagram above is the Hans device version - the "normal" allowance is 45 degrees.

[GC8]

Dont spoil peoples fun. Nonsense talk about harness fitting, 'bike helmets', and the suitability of Perspex for windows is a staple of those who repeat, but never really understand

[ian964]

Herman Toothrot said:

I'm in the process of having a full cage with harness bar welded in my MX5, I had clip in harnesses before and now need to go wrap around the harness bar. I can't seem to find any that are suitable? The closest type I can find are Elise / Exige specific ones? Any suggestions?

I had the same requirement as you for my 964 cup car, i.e. push-button and wrap-around shoulder straps. I ended up buying these - http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Harnesses... and the crotch strap separately. The shoulder strap clips can be easily removed for harness bar mounting bar.

[Herman Toothrot]

ian964 said:

Herman Toothrot said:

I'm in the process of having a full cage with harness bar welded in my MX5, I had clip in harnesses before and now need to go wrap around the harness bar. I can't seem to find any that are suitable? The closest type I can find are Elise / Exige specific ones? Any suggestions?

I had the same requirement as you for my 964 cup car, i.e. push-button and wrap-around shoulder straps. I ended up buying these - http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Harnesses... and the crotch strap separately. The shoulder strap clips can be easily removed for harness bar mounting bar.

They look good - essentially like the Elise one but with clips on the lap - which is what I really want. So the clips on the shoulder strap, can they just be unthreaded from the strap and the strap then put round the harness bar? If so they look the best option, I was a bit worried the Elise ones may have had too short shoulder straps.

Edited by Herman Toothrot on Monday 26th April 08:51

[flemke]

Mroad said:

I think the requirements for ECE standards are that the seat belt release has to operated by only one hand. Turn knob or lever style should in theory fail the standard as you are supposed to use two hands to undo them (one hand to stop the buckle twisting). If the belt doesn't have a standard mark then it should fail the MOT, having said that I don't know how Jap imports get around this, I guess because they were previously SVA'ed? (I should know as I did have a jap import!)
Anyway having said that, whether it passes or not depends on the MOT station you take it to.
I've had a couple of track cars which only have turn lever/buckle harnesses and they have passed with no issues.
If you are worried then just keep the original inertia reel belts installed for testing purposes.
I strongly recommend that you never use an inertia reel belt if you have a cage with bars in front of the driver!

I could not say that you are wrong about the "one-hand" requirement.
John Fenning, who ran Willans for decades, told me that the reason that the rotary buckle was not strictly lawful in the UK was simply owing to a transcription error.
According to John, when the UK joined the EEC, a boatload of laws and regulations had to be translated from English to the official language of the EEC, Froguage. All the translated UK stuff was then approved, en masse, by the parliaments of the established EEC members.
It seems that the translator of the regulations for road vehicles neglected to include the final sentence of the UK seat belt regs: "The above shall also apply to the rotary buckle."

If there is a one-hand requirement, and there may well be, it's a bit ironic that a rotary buckle is actually easier to locate and easier to release than the push button type.