Getting into Engine Tuning
Discussion
Hi guys,
Just set to finish my BTEC First Diploma in Motorsport Engineering (Yes I know not great, but I messed about in school so now going from the bottom) I live away from home to do this course and wont be returning next year due to finance reasons. What I'm trying to find is would the course and such like I'm currently on now get me into engine tuning or is it a long winded way?
I plan on moving back to my home town and progressing from there... Currently planning on doing a 4yr apprenticeship with Princess Yachts in Mechanical Engineering (need the money currently and with such a company would look great on my CV from working for a world wide known company) and then progressing onto doing a Mechanical Engineering degree. This would take me about 8 yrs to achieve due to the fact the degree course wont be 3 yrs as will have to do a 1 yr foundation yr onto of the course.
Is there anyway I could get there quicker? Goal is to tune jap cars for a living with hopefully one day my own company. Dream is to work in F1.
I have tried to find apprenticeships in Engine tuning in Plymouth which is my home town, Alan Jeffery (owner of Engine tuner; subaru specialist) wont touch me due to the fact he wont take on apprentices. Only other garage I seem to have on offer is AP Motors. Does anyone know if Engine Tuning apprenticeships come up much? I've searched the internet high and low and as of yet have had no luck.
Am I right in thinking mechanical engineering path is the only way forward in doing this?
Just set to finish my BTEC First Diploma in Motorsport Engineering (Yes I know not great, but I messed about in school so now going from the bottom) I live away from home to do this course and wont be returning next year due to finance reasons. What I'm trying to find is would the course and such like I'm currently on now get me into engine tuning or is it a long winded way?
I plan on moving back to my home town and progressing from there... Currently planning on doing a 4yr apprenticeship with Princess Yachts in Mechanical Engineering (need the money currently and with such a company would look great on my CV from working for a world wide known company) and then progressing onto doing a Mechanical Engineering degree. This would take me about 8 yrs to achieve due to the fact the degree course wont be 3 yrs as will have to do a 1 yr foundation yr onto of the course.
Is there anyway I could get there quicker? Goal is to tune jap cars for a living with hopefully one day my own company. Dream is to work in F1.
I have tried to find apprenticeships in Engine tuning in Plymouth which is my home town, Alan Jeffery (owner of Engine tuner; subaru specialist) wont touch me due to the fact he wont take on apprentices. Only other garage I seem to have on offer is AP Motors. Does anyone know if Engine Tuning apprenticeships come up much? I've searched the internet high and low and as of yet have had no luck.
Am I right in thinking mechanical engineering path is the only way forward in doing this?
Although nowhere near you, they do come up. World wide known Viezu have a base in bromsgrove, and they were taking on apprentices recently. I looked at giving in a go, but it would've been my only source of income and the money was literally pennies. If I could've afforded to, I would've ripped their arm off! Keep looking!
davepoth said:
No, do it the way most of those guys have; get a job, get a shed, tune in your shed in the evenings, get a name for yourself, get business.
This is the best way!Also a good way to build character, if you have a job AND can bring yourself to do it in your free time then it means you enjoy the work, warts and all! If it naturally grows and you can quit your full time job, and you WANT to quit your full time job for it, then it's a sign that it's viable
Lastly, a good way to build a reputation as you can under-cut other bigger business on cost. Just develop your own car and document your progress (but not the detail) on an owners forum for example. They will see you go the extra mile. Then offer to do some cars for free, then start to charge etc...
Dave
Agreed. If this is your chosen path dont waste a second more in a classroom.
Get yourself a laptop and some kit for tuning VAGs and start from there. A good thing to do is get involved with tuner websites and build up some contacts. A little known fact is that most "tuners" get maps written for them by very specialised programmers. You need these people on board to make the most of your tuning work. If you want to drop me a PM I can give you some contact details for someone very respected in the industry that will be useful for you to know with regards to the mapping.
Get yourself a laptop and some kit for tuning VAGs and start from there. A good thing to do is get involved with tuner websites and build up some contacts. A little known fact is that most "tuners" get maps written for them by very specialised programmers. You need these people on board to make the most of your tuning work. If you want to drop me a PM I can give you some contact details for someone very respected in the industry that will be useful for you to know with regards to the mapping.
fridaypassion said:
Agreed. If this is your chosen path dont waste a second more in a classroom.
Get yourself a laptop and some kit for tuning VAGs and start from there. A good thing to do is get involved with tuner websites and build up some contacts. A little known fact is that most "tuners" get maps written for them by very specialised programmers. You need these people on board to make the most of your tuning work. If you want to drop me a PM I can give you some contact details for someone very respected in the industry that will be useful for you to know with regards to the mapping.
No, a proper engine mapper does not get maps written for them, thats just chip tuning and any monkey can do that, in fact most do, I've met very few chip tuners who even have a basic knowlage of knock, AFR's etc. They just either buy a map off someone else or play around with WinOLS and let the car sort itself out. The Day i see a chip tuner actually attach a set of Det Cans to a car, well. Many of the people who actually write the maps are a different kettle of fish and are very knowledgable, and with many modern cars the only way is chip tuning.Get yourself a laptop and some kit for tuning VAGs and start from there. A good thing to do is get involved with tuner websites and build up some contacts. A little known fact is that most "tuners" get maps written for them by very specialised programmers. You need these people on board to make the most of your tuning work. If you want to drop me a PM I can give you some contact details for someone very respected in the industry that will be useful for you to know with regards to the mapping.
Proper engine mapping is a litte more involved. Most of the people who do it in Motorsport have degrees, Most of the people who do aftermarket road tuning do not, though it seems to have little bearing on ability. Experience is very important, well that and at least a few brain cells.
You need to be able to do wiring, have knowlage of various ecu's and their foibles. You will never make big money being an employee of a tuning firm and mapping, so you will have to go it alone, which means you will need a business acumen as well, something many people in the aftermarket trade seem to be lacking.
About 4 years ago I met a young lad who was learning to map on his own car and had started doing some cars on the forum he was on, He now travels all around the world, is a fellow director in Syvecs and is the Chap who Maps JamieP's car. So its defo possible to get there.
Oh and both the chip tuning world, the aftermarket mapping scene and the motorsport scene are full of sharks, conmen, criminals, launded money, huge loans that will never be repaid, fronting, fiddleing dyno results etc etc.
Don't want to put you off going for it though. I've worked in this industry for almost 7 years now and we have a bloody good laugh!
I'll let you into the big secret of success in business, especially if you are in a garage.
"Under-promise, over-perform".
If you make a promise to someone, always make 100% certain you can meet that promise. Add a couple of days in if needed; there's always a delay somewhere. That way you'll do better than promised, and people will recommend you for good service.
"Under-promise, over-perform".
If you make a promise to someone, always make 100% certain you can meet that promise. Add a couple of days in if needed; there's always a delay somewhere. That way you'll do better than promised, and people will recommend you for good service.
Good advice that, oh and did I mention there a many people out there who are not technically the best engine mappers, but they have loads of customers, because they are good at marketing and PR.
The Best mapper I know has very few retail customers and only deals with the trade because he is rubbish at dealing with people.
Go figure.
The Best mapper I know has very few retail customers and only deals with the trade because he is rubbish at dealing with people.
Go figure.
Question for the OP.
Have you actually done anything off your own back? Done any work yourself, and any learning?
What car do you have?
This is something that interests me on a personal level - because I'm an engineer and a petrolhead.
At the moment in my garage is a cylinder head in bits, that I've stripped and will be changing over to my current car.
The books on my table right now include "How to build and modify and power tune cylinder heads" by Speedpro and "Performance fuel injection systems" by the DIYautotune lot.
I've also built my own AFR display, and done some logs of various things happening to the engine to get my head round it. I've also jerry rigged an intake air temperature sensor in to the car with a display and have been measuring changes made in the ambient>intake delta while I mess about with cowls, bits of tubing etc to get the best air charge in.
All of this is just for my own enjoyment.
I strongly suggest you need to start your own project to do some learning.
Have you actually done anything off your own back? Done any work yourself, and any learning?
What car do you have?
This is something that interests me on a personal level - because I'm an engineer and a petrolhead.
At the moment in my garage is a cylinder head in bits, that I've stripped and will be changing over to my current car.
The books on my table right now include "How to build and modify and power tune cylinder heads" by Speedpro and "Performance fuel injection systems" by the DIYautotune lot.
I've also built my own AFR display, and done some logs of various things happening to the engine to get my head round it. I've also jerry rigged an intake air temperature sensor in to the car with a display and have been measuring changes made in the ambient>intake delta while I mess about with cowls, bits of tubing etc to get the best air charge in.
All of this is just for my own enjoyment.
I strongly suggest you need to start your own project to do some learning.
Vixpy1 said:
No, a proper engine mapper does not get maps written for them,
Yeah thats kind of the point I was making. Superchips franchises operate in a download/upload manor. A "proper" ecu tuner wont need files writing for them. The guy I know is one of the prominent ones that writes files for other people.I do question how good people who can 'map any car' are though, ie, those who even write files. I'd prefer a writer of a file to own that car and have done thousands of miles of development with their map, driven the standard one and got to know it before deciding how it should be improved... not just making it have more torque everywhere.
Every car is a bit different, every car has potential issues that need fixing, every customer might want something different, and every car is a bit different too.
In my view, if you get into tuning, then specialise in something you have access to (possibly your own car), and know it inside and out (within reason at any stage)... but then use bought/sold maps as a secondary income to sustain workload and keep you going.
I tuned my last car myself, and found all the 'reputable' tuners were just s
t (honestly), and so went about remapping my own car and learning how. It surprised me just how few tuners out there actually know much at all about what does what in the ECU's to start with.
The second issue was then that some tuners didn't know the engine specifics, so were tuning the wrong things that the engine didn't even have.
Long story short, if you specialise and get amazing results beyond what 95% of the other 'tuners' out there can achieve, it kinda winds up the job of capturing that market fairly well.
If you want to get into engine building etc, then lots of reading is needed, and messing with your own engine, and getting great results with it.
A degree might help, but if you decide tuning isn't for you, then you've got a degree for nothing. It's just as viable to learn the needed skills as you go along if you are truly passionate about what you are working towards
Dave
Every car is a bit different, every car has potential issues that need fixing, every customer might want something different, and every car is a bit different too.
In my view, if you get into tuning, then specialise in something you have access to (possibly your own car), and know it inside and out (within reason at any stage)... but then use bought/sold maps as a secondary income to sustain workload and keep you going.
I tuned my last car myself, and found all the 'reputable' tuners were just s
t (honestly), and so went about remapping my own car and learning how. It surprised me just how few tuners out there actually know much at all about what does what in the ECU's to start with.The second issue was then that some tuners didn't know the engine specifics, so were tuning the wrong things that the engine didn't even have.
Long story short, if you specialise and get amazing results beyond what 95% of the other 'tuners' out there can achieve, it kinda winds up the job of capturing that market fairly well.
If you want to get into engine building etc, then lots of reading is needed, and messing with your own engine, and getting great results with it.
A degree might help, but if you decide tuning isn't for you, then you've got a degree for nothing. It's just as viable to learn the needed skills as you go along if you are truly passionate about what you are working towards
Dave
Some interesting replies here, some agreeable with some not so much.
Firstly it's important to get some experience. Like Snotrag says, get an old engine, strip it, find out what everything does, clean it up, rebuild it etc etc... then move onto AFR displays, intake preure measurements. This is something you can do with a coke bottle and a rubber tube, actually get measurements not jut changing filters or whacking an induction kit on. That in't tuning and almost always makes no difference!
Secondly, whoever said get out of the classroom is talking bullst. Most tuners don't have degrees and consequently most tuners know feck all what they're talking about, generically upping the fueling and boost pressures and "chipping" is not proper engine tuning.
A proper engine tuner needs to know about airflow, pressure, benouillis, thermodynamics, gas flow, combustion cycles etc etc etc.... the list goes on. This is stuff you can read up on, but if it's what you are serious about then do take it seriously and go and get decent education in it.
Proper engine tuning involves a lot of maths and science, it's not something you can just learn to do in your shed at the weekend, it takes a lot of studying to understand the science behind what you're doing, and why changing components give you some gains, but losses in other areas of the rev range.
Firstly it's important to get some experience. Like Snotrag says, get an old engine, strip it, find out what everything does, clean it up, rebuild it etc etc... then move onto AFR displays, intake preure measurements. This is something you can do with a coke bottle and a rubber tube, actually get measurements not jut changing filters or whacking an induction kit on. That in't tuning and almost always makes no difference!
Secondly, whoever said get out of the classroom is talking bulls
t. Most tuners don't have degrees and consequently most tuners know feck all what they're talking about, generically upping the fueling and boost pressures and "chipping" is not proper engine tuning. A proper engine tuner needs to know about airflow, pressure, benouillis, thermodynamics, gas flow, combustion cycles etc etc etc.... the list goes on. This is stuff you can read up on, but if it's what you are serious about then do take it seriously and go and get decent education in it.
Proper engine tuning involves a lot of maths and science, it's not something you can just learn to do in your shed at the weekend, it takes a lot of studying to understand the science behind what you're doing, and why changing components give you some gains, but losses in other areas of the rev range.
Agreed.
Hence my new found love of books. Get on amazon, get on ebay, get some good books. 2nd hand is fine. Read some theory, and science, do some experiments.
I've been reading up on how to make my own flow bench this week, very interested in having a go. Also using coloured paraffin to balance cylinder head chamber volumes.
Hence my new found love of books. Get on amazon, get on ebay, get some good books. 2nd hand is fine. Read some theory, and science, do some experiments.
I've been reading up on how to make my own flow bench this week, very interested in having a go. Also using coloured paraffin to balance cylinder head chamber volumes.
K87 said:
Some interesting replies here, some agreeable with some not so much.
Firstly it's important to get some experience. Like Snotrag says, get an old engine, strip it, find out what everything does, clean it up, rebuild it etc etc... then move onto AFR displays, intake preure measurements. This is something you can do with a coke bottle and a rubber tube, actually get measurements not jut changing filters or whacking an induction kit on. That in't tuning and almost always makes no difference!
Secondly, whoever said get out of the classroom is talking bullst. Most tuners don't have degrees and consequently most tuners know feck all what they're talking about, generically upping the fueling and boost pressures and "chipping" is not proper engine tuning.
A proper engine tuner needs to know about airflow, pressure, benouillis, thermodynamics, gas flow, combustion cycles etc etc etc.... the list goes on. This is stuff you can read up on, but if it's what you are serious about then do take it seriously and go and get decent education in it.
Proper engine tuning involves a lot of maths and science, it's not something you can just learn to do in your shed at the weekend, it takes a lot of studying to understand the science behind what you're doing, and why changing components give you some gains, but losses in other areas of the rev range.
The classroom is important, but it isn't essential. It is easily something you could do once you get going if you feel you need help, or there are gaps, or you want it to prove you have one in the tuning world.Firstly it's important to get some experience. Like Snotrag says, get an old engine, strip it, find out what everything does, clean it up, rebuild it etc etc... then move onto AFR displays, intake preure measurements. This is something you can do with a coke bottle and a rubber tube, actually get measurements not jut changing filters or whacking an induction kit on. That in't tuning and almost always makes no difference!
Secondly, whoever said get out of the classroom is talking bulls
t. Most tuners don't have degrees and consequently most tuners know feck all what they're talking about, generically upping the fueling and boost pressures and "chipping" is not proper engine tuning. A proper engine tuner needs to know about airflow, pressure, benouillis, thermodynamics, gas flow, combustion cycles etc etc etc.... the list goes on. This is stuff you can read up on, but if it's what you are serious about then do take it seriously and go and get decent education in it.
Proper engine tuning involves a lot of maths and science, it's not something you can just learn to do in your shed at the weekend, it takes a lot of studying to understand the science behind what you're doing, and why changing components give you some gains, but losses in other areas of the rev range.
I think that many things these days can be entered in your free time. Dabble, learn, invest your free time, and if it still feels more like a fun hobby than work, then it's the right path to go down. Invest where you need to, and if that feels sensible rather than a waste of money, then it's proving it's what you want to do!
Going to university as a precursor to starting your own business in an industry that prefers results rather than letters after your name or what you 'say' you can deliver, seems like a big waste of time and money.
Get a degree by all means, but do it in your free time. Life is too short to mess about at university for years when you can be starting work now!
Dave
It's also worth Getty some general experience with cars if you havent already. It's not much use tuning cars up if you don't know how to change a clutch. I think driving round with a laptop and a data cable as your only tools is not the way to go. I would marry up traditional garage services with any tuning work. Maximise income and get repeat service custom.
fridaypassion said:
It's also worth Getty some general experience with cars if you havent already. It's not much use tuning cars up if you don't know how to change a clutch. I think driving round with a laptop and a data cable as your only tools is not the way to go. I would marry up traditional garage services with any tuning work. Maximise income and get repeat service custom.
Generally (and I say generally) Good mechanics make crap mappers, and good mappers are usually crap mechanics. Two different skill sets required, although I agree having knowlage of both worlds helps.Vixpy1 said:
fridaypassion said:
It's also worth Getty some general experience with cars if you havent already. It's not much use tuning cars up if you don't know how to change a clutch. I think driving round with a laptop and a data cable as your only tools is not the way to go. I would marry up traditional garage services with any tuning work. Maximise income and get repeat service custom.
Generally (and I say generally) Good mechanics make crap mappers, and good mappers are usually crap mechanics. Two different skill sets required, although I agree having knowlage of both worlds helps.
If you can take a car in bits and swap engines it's useful, but if you get good at remapping/tuning you can employ someone to do that stuff, and pay them a little bit less than what you make doing more remapping in the free'd up time... ergo you end up with employees and more turnover, and hopefully more profit
Dave
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