Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?
Discussion
johnwilliams77 said:
Crackie said:
I agree the "ish" isn't very helpful; to clear up the vague ambiguity......... I don't think the E46 M3 a fast car. It would have been Daytona / Countach pace in 1970s and 80s but today E46 M3 performance is available from a standard diesel 3 series saloon.
Clearer.So do you think it is a slow car?
ETA 0836whimper's video and comments below are interesting regarding an M135i having similar straight line pace to an E46 M3 CSL.
Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 7th June 18:04
Chaps, having seen this thread posted on the front page, thought I would stick my non-BMW oar in.
I have a 4.3 V8 Vantage. The nature of the engine (needs revs), the car's weight and its drivetrain mean that frankly, most high-end turbo hatches are faster in a straight line these days, and a great deal faster through the bends.
But that's not what I bought it for.
Car tech gathers pace aplenty, and turbos make such performance highly accessible. If a Ford Focus RS can keep a GTR honest on track, what hope do "old tech" 2wd, normally aspirated sports cars have?
None!
I have a 4.3 V8 Vantage. The nature of the engine (needs revs), the car's weight and its drivetrain mean that frankly, most high-end turbo hatches are faster in a straight line these days, and a great deal faster through the bends.
But that's not what I bought it for.
Car tech gathers pace aplenty, and turbos make such performance highly accessible. If a Ford Focus RS can keep a GTR honest on track, what hope do "old tech" 2wd, normally aspirated sports cars have?
None!
Completely different types of car. Completely different to drive. Why are we having this discussion? other than I'm a bit bored too.
Harry Flashman said:
If a Ford Focus RS can keep a GTR honest on track, what hope do "old tech" 2wd, normally aspirated sports cars have?
None!
Well, here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car keeping a GT-R honest on a track. Clearly the GT-R is much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, doesn't lap any quicker though.None!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
Well a standard Audi RS3 kept my Aston honest in the straights and killed me on turn-in to corners on a recent track day, and I'm not an awful driver, and the (very nice) chap in the RS3 was no pro. And the Focus RS is meant to be quicker and even easier to drive than the RS3.
So make of that what you will...
I also had my old Caterham on that day (Brands), and that murdered the same RS3 everywhere, so old tech can win, sometimes!
So make of that what you will...
I also had my old Caterham on that day (Brands), and that murdered the same RS3 everywhere, so old tech can win, sometimes!
Edited by Harry Flashman on Tuesday 7th June 17:21
0836whimper said:
Harry Flashman said:
If a Ford Focus RS can keep a GTR honest on track, what hope do "old tech" 2wd, normally aspirated sports cars have?
None!
Well, here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car keeping a GT-R honest on a track. Clearly the GT-R is much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, doesn't lap any quicker though.None!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
b) the M3 CSL is a fantastic, track focussed machine. Unlike a Z4M, or indeed my own V8V.
I am a former Z4MC and current E46 M3 owner. They are "fast" cars by most people's definitions, but really do require work to get the best from. Notably you need to use all the revs in first gear to get a serious launch and not many people will want to do that!
That being said, when I got the replacement for the M3, an Evora 400 (as seen in Reader's Cars) I tested cars with shedloads more power but in the end decided to go for something which was a much more "complete" and balanced package. A car with 550bhp/500lb-ft might sound fun on paper, but in the real world it just seemed an exercise in restraint.
That being said, when I got the replacement for the M3, an Evora 400 (as seen in Reader's Cars) I tested cars with shedloads more power but in the end decided to go for something which was a much more "complete" and balanced package. A car with 550bhp/500lb-ft might sound fun on paper, but in the real world it just seemed an exercise in restraint.
herebebeasties said:
Agreed you need a very quick thing to make a quick thing seem slow. My Elise SC is quick enough to keep a Nissan GTR looking fairly honest at vaguely road legal speeds, but it's a much slower car in a straight line on paper.
Agreed x 2. Makes me think back to a trackday at Croft where I was held up by a car with ~ 200 bhp to my 300bhp. As the car in front was getting out of the bends first and not using its mirrors at all I couldn't do a clean overtake before the braking zone without going past on the inside on the brakes - and I was being polite so didn't do that. You need a lot more power or power/weight to come out of a bend and cleanly overtake before a braking zone on all but very long straights.This video from a while back shows a much quicker car vs. an E46 M3. Admittedly it is out of the bend first, but picks up nicely. Not a standard car though - PH Carpool
On the original thread, they are fast enough to have fun. There is always someone with more power (and money), but as long as it has enough power to make life entertaining, what more do you need?
And some of these NA cars do need to be driven hard and high up the revs (as previous posters have said) compared to the easily accessible torque of the engines of newer machines. If driven using the same style as a turbocharged car, they will be artificially slower.
0836whimper said:
Well, here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car keeping a GT-R honest on a track. Clearly the GT-R is much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, doesn't lap any quicker though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
You get that lovely raspy mechanically produced noise, the M135i will get the horrible speaker induced whirring noise as is common on BMWs these days. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
Derailing thread with this video of the BMW M4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOfwyiavxys
Whiiiiir, whiiiiir, whiiiiiiiiiir
What the actual f
k were they thinking. Looking at this question from a different angle, there is a limit to how fast I want my car to be on the road.
I recently drove a Nissan GTR on track, fabulous, a weapon, but too quick for me, and I mean me, to enjoy on the road. I'd want to accelerate for longer to have a few moments to savour the performance, by which time I'd be in trouble. Same with new M3/4/5, just hold the throttle to the floor for 9 seconds and you are past the ton. My personal cut-off is probably about 13 seconds to 100, it's enough push in the back, and just about enjoyable on the road, but excludes some fine cars, so maybe 11 seconds just to broaden the scope.
I tried a Testarossa on track a few years ago. Not a competent car by most people's numbers, but I found it very sweet and a lovely experience.
The question for me then becomes: do I want to get to 100 in 11 seconds sharing my 4 wheels with a 4 cylinder engine (either in a kit dcar or turbo hatch), or can I pay the costs associated with something running a more exotic engine of at least 6 cylinders? The first option leaves me a bit cold.
Which is the better experience? Two bottles of Julio Gallo or two glasses of Chateau Latour?
I recently drove a Nissan GTR on track, fabulous, a weapon, but too quick for me, and I mean me, to enjoy on the road. I'd want to accelerate for longer to have a few moments to savour the performance, by which time I'd be in trouble. Same with new M3/4/5, just hold the throttle to the floor for 9 seconds and you are past the ton. My personal cut-off is probably about 13 seconds to 100, it's enough push in the back, and just about enjoyable on the road, but excludes some fine cars, so maybe 11 seconds just to broaden the scope.
I tried a Testarossa on track a few years ago. Not a competent car by most people's numbers, but I found it very sweet and a lovely experience.
The question for me then becomes: do I want to get to 100 in 11 seconds sharing my 4 wheels with a 4 cylinder engine (either in a kit dcar or turbo hatch), or can I pay the costs associated with something running a more exotic engine of at least 6 cylinders? The first option leaves me a bit cold.
Which is the better experience? Two bottles of Julio Gallo or two glasses of Chateau Latour?
Edited by Baddie on Tuesday 7th June 19:00
0836whimper said:
Well, here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car keeping a GT-R honest on a track. Clearly the GT-R is much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, doesn't lap any quicker though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
And I'm sure your old tech 2wd na sports car is completely standard without it's sticky tyres to give the m135 a sporting chance.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
Nice driving and lovely car.
Beedub said:
Don't agree with that at all never see you right such things about the TVRs that last 30 seconds truly shocking moors, did you know the f12 TDF uses the same tech for the mech valve train and the sodium filled valves.... nothing old hat about this , more done properly, forged crank, forged rods, the head is a work of art on these, ITB, the engine is wonderful, but like all has its issues...
the car maybe isn't that fast by todays standards but the engine is nothing but special, MORE so in todays standards, today we get eco 4 pots with turbos that are just mehhh.... they make performance but no character so, are that they fast in todays performance car world, not really, BUT... what a wonderful ownership experience that for me is still yet to be trumped, the s54 is something truly special, even popping her bonnet makes me smile. The sound, the feel, the mechanical sounds it makes, just lovely.....
i can however say my little 1088kg fiesta ST with some tuning add-ons would give many cars a hard time tbh, but theirs NOTHING special about that eco 1.6 and its borwarner turbo. But that wasn't the original question.
lets not forget... than can make quite abit more too with some more spent.
As it happens, I have an MX-5 supercharged to c. 200 bhp/tonne & with coilovers etc. This would comfortably keep up with my standard M3 on a twisty "B" road. I thought this was a bit cheeky, so had an ESS supercharger conversion fitted to my M3. Still not significantly more powerful below 3000 rpm, however at or above this point, acceleration is noticeably brisker and power more than enough to light up the ESP light repeatedly. Would it hold off a turbocharged Astra etc. ? Well, it would probably at least give it something to think about.the car maybe isn't that fast by todays standards but the engine is nothing but special, MORE so in todays standards, today we get eco 4 pots with turbos that are just mehhh.... they make performance but no character so, are that they fast in todays performance car world, not really, BUT... what a wonderful ownership experience that for me is still yet to be trumped, the s54 is something truly special, even popping her bonnet makes me smile. The sound, the feel, the mechanical sounds it makes, just lovely.....
i can however say my little 1088kg fiesta ST with some tuning add-ons would give many cars a hard time tbh, but theirs NOTHING special about that eco 1.6 and its borwarner turbo. But that wasn't the original question.
lets not forget... than can make quite abit more too with some more spent.
Edited by Beedub on Monday 6th June 21:46
By the way, leaving aside the weight of e.g. an E46 M3, which doesn't help, a comparison of "M" car transmission losses on a recent dyno day I attended threw up figures around 28 %. OK, this is estimated loss, can't be helping acceleration.
0836whimper said:
Well, here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car keeping a GT-R honest on a track. Clearly the GT-R is much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, doesn't lap any quicker though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
The noise on the second vid has just caused me to have a small accident https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
I have a lovely low mileage Z4MC. I use it as a weekender and evening thrasher. I keep it for two reasons. Firstly I am absolutely convinced it's the last of a breed. The combination of two seats, long nose, short arse, ridiculously rigid body shell, pretty masculine looks all-time classic NA engine in a 1,400kg package. It;s not perfect, handling is a bit twitchy on country roads, it;s a bit bumpy and gearbox is a turd between 1st and second. But those are very minor defects compared to the package. By the way, I don't agree with the build quality whiners, mine is well put together and doesn't rattle at all, maybe because it's a late car.
Second reason is that I really want it in my garage in 20 years. I've missed the boast on classics like the original CSL, 2002ti, E28 M5, M635csi. But I do think that this car will be a noteworthy resident in my garage in 20 years time.
Second reason is that I really want it in my garage in 20 years. I've missed the boast on classics like the original CSL, 2002ti, E28 M5, M635csi. But I do think that this car will be a noteworthy resident in my garage in 20 years time.
Its a difficult question is a Z4M coupe slow?, its yes and no answer, Ive driven a few E36 and E46 M3's that friends have had in the past and its a special place to be in my humble opinion, that S54 M engine is fabulous and makes the whole M experience worth while,
The Astra on the other hand is a long way from fabulous, its handling is questionable, its reliability is very questionable and its not really long for this world in terms of engine life and gearbox and clutch, with that much power going through the front wheels, where as the Z4M was made to take that power and then some from the start.
The Astra is a hot hatch based on a basic shopping trolley and the Z4M coupe was engineered by the M division to go racing, which is why they put a roof on it, its not just a Z4 with a better engine and a roof, The engine was set further back in the chassis, weight distribution was better, all the suspension and geometry was revised all the little things that make a big difference on track, so putting a 350/400 hp astra around a race track against a STD Z4M for me would be a given that the Z4M would win but in a straight line motorway drag, Im guessing the Astra would keep up or win so it is faster and it isn't faster...only my opinion
The Astra on the other hand is a long way from fabulous, its handling is questionable, its reliability is very questionable and its not really long for this world in terms of engine life and gearbox and clutch, with that much power going through the front wheels, where as the Z4M was made to take that power and then some from the start.
The Astra is a hot hatch based on a basic shopping trolley and the Z4M coupe was engineered by the M division to go racing, which is why they put a roof on it, its not just a Z4 with a better engine and a roof, The engine was set further back in the chassis, weight distribution was better, all the suspension and geometry was revised all the little things that make a big difference on track, so putting a 350/400 hp astra around a race track against a STD Z4M for me would be a given that the Z4M would win but in a straight line motorway drag, Im guessing the Astra would keep up or win so it is faster and it isn't faster...only my opinion
0836whimper said:
Harry Flashman said:
If a Ford Focus RS can keep a GTR honest on track, what hope do "old tech" 2wd, normally aspirated sports cars have?
None!
Well, here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car keeping a GT-R honest on a track. Clearly the GT-R is much more powerful and quicker in a straight line, doesn't lap any quicker though.None!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiDuj8L3dh4
And here's my 'old tech' 2wd normally aspirated sports car reeling in a M135i on a track. They are roughly the same in a straight line, but the M135i laps much slower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X324eNn9HUU
Superb vids.
And awesome induction noise from the carbon air box...
Not too bad for an old hat s54!!
Wish I'd bought a csl all those years ago but with values pushing £80k think I missed my chance.
Thanks for posting the vids.
Andy
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