Z4M / E46 M3 - Are they just not that fast?
Discussion
Prohibiting said:
I've read all the comments. To add a spanner into the works, part of the fun of owning a cheaper older car IS upsetting much more expensive machinery. Personally I don't care about all the modern luxuries in a car.
This! I'd imagine that the Astra driver was very pleased with himself keeping up with the OP's BM.All I have to say on this matter now really is that the last car I drove that properly put a smile on my face similar to how the S54 does when I get a nice bit of open road and floor it, is a 1995 Honda NSX. That thing might not have "much power", but omg did that matter? hell no. That panoramic view of the road, the low seating position, the steering feel and that engine right behind your skull... I've driven +400BHP cars as well as tiny little things but the only 2 modern classic cars with unique driver feel for me have been the E46 M3, and the Honda NSX.
It's as people said earlier,m smiles per mile. I drove the NSX on Canadian winding hilltop roads, it felt sublime, and I want one, but can't afford one
It's as people said earlier,m smiles per mile. I drove the NSX on Canadian winding hilltop roads, it felt sublime, and I want one, but can't afford one
Crackie said:
Good stuff......it was good pre map and very good now. 
I am very pleased indeed!The chap on the previous page that said the current gen M3/4/5, GTR's and 991 Turbos are too quick these days to enjoy on the road is spot on. A few seconds of WOT and then into instant ban territory. Oh and making a s
t sound whilst doing it too.
As for the Z4MC, anyone who thinks it lacks torque is a fool. I could dig out the Autocar in-gear times as evidence but frankly I can't be bothered. But there aren't many cars that can cover those 20mph increments much quicker and there's also rapid progress in all gears as well. I think 60-80 is despatched in 2.6 seconds for example. Some will better that, most won't.
It's no surprise that a 2006 NA car is now being caught by newer, cheaper machinery but it's still a fast car. 0-130 in 20.0 as tested by Autocar. Based on their performance figures, conducted using the same methods, it's quicker to 130mph than a Mk 1 RS3, 1M Coupe, M135i, Golf R, Focus RS Mk 1,2 and 3, miles quicker than most other hot hatches and identical to a Mk 1 TTRS. I'm talking standard cars of course. Apples with apples not apples with pears.
I'm 47 so I'm past trying to prove how fast my car is or pub bragging rights. I just savour the drive, the sound it makes and the way it makes me feel special every time I drive it.
t sound whilst doing it too.As for the Z4MC, anyone who thinks it lacks torque is a fool. I could dig out the Autocar in-gear times as evidence but frankly I can't be bothered. But there aren't many cars that can cover those 20mph increments much quicker and there's also rapid progress in all gears as well. I think 60-80 is despatched in 2.6 seconds for example. Some will better that, most won't.
It's no surprise that a 2006 NA car is now being caught by newer, cheaper machinery but it's still a fast car. 0-130 in 20.0 as tested by Autocar. Based on their performance figures, conducted using the same methods, it's quicker to 130mph than a Mk 1 RS3, 1M Coupe, M135i, Golf R, Focus RS Mk 1,2 and 3, miles quicker than most other hot hatches and identical to a Mk 1 TTRS. I'm talking standard cars of course. Apples with apples not apples with pears.
I'm 47 so I'm past trying to prove how fast my car is or pub bragging rights. I just savour the drive, the sound it makes and the way it makes me feel special every time I drive it.
original guvnor said:
But there aren't many cars that can cover those 20mph increments much quicker and there's also rapid progress in all gears as well. I think 60-80 is despatched in 2.6 seconds for example. Some will better that, most won't.
0-130 in 20.0 as tested by Autocar. Based on their performance figures, conducted using the same methods, it's quicker to 130mph than a Mk 1 RS3, 1M Coupe, M135i, Golf R, Focus RS Mk 1,2 and 3, miles quicker than most other hot hatches and identical to a Mk 1 TTRS.
I'm 47 so I'm past trying to prove how fast my car is or pub bragging rights.
Errm......0-130 in 20.0 as tested by Autocar. Based on their performance figures, conducted using the same methods, it's quicker to 130mph than a Mk 1 RS3, 1M Coupe, M135i, Golf R, Focus RS Mk 1,2 and 3, miles quicker than most other hot hatches and identical to a Mk 1 TTRS.
I'm 47 so I'm past trying to prove how fast my car is or pub bragging rights.
I was accelerating up a two-lane slip ramp last week in my e90 M3 when a Golf-R appeared in the other lane giving it a go, I didn't indulge him but could see the current crop of hot hatchery has some awesome pace and grip...but lacked the noise. I dropped a cog and at 5K+ RPM it sounds like a piece of exotica! The Golf sounded like a hair dryer tbh.
fur53y said:
I was accelerating up a two-lane slip ramp last week in my e90 M3 when a Golf-R appeared in the other lane giving it a go, I didn't indulge him but could see the current crop of hot hatchery has some awesome pace and grip...
Well I think that's something PHers will have to come to grips with. It's also getting "worse". What's e.g. an eight year old Cupra 5F going to be worth? Very accessible I think and so easy to get 360 PS or more with just software. And what about the lego engines from BMW? Once the tuners fully understand the B58, I think the M cars will have a hard time -- on paper. Because as so many remarked already, does it matter? Best case, the prices for the old NA things stay low a bit longer because not "stats not competitive" to the eyes of the unwashed.
fur53y said:
I was accelerating up a two-lane slip ramp last week in my e90 M3 when a Golf-R appeared in the other lane giving it a go,
That's what shocked me the most with my E92 M3 how easily the Turbo stuff kept up and if highly tuned the M3 wouldn't stand a chance, I think with the N/A engined M cars though it's been about enjoying their engines(character/depth) and accepting that they aren't especially quick, I suppose that's never what they have been about anyway. The current M3 has raised the game performance wise though and that certainly appeals to me, in many ways it's now a case with the current M3 in that if you can't beat them you may as well join them.
original guvnor said:
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As for the Z4MC, anyone who thinks it lacks torque is a fool. I could dig out the Autocar in-gear times as evidence but frankly I can't be bothered.
I'd say a fool was someone who thought 269ftlbs in any M car was ample. Explain why in-gear acceleration is result of only torque, could you?As for the Z4MC, anyone who thinks it lacks torque is a fool. I could dig out the Autocar in-gear times as evidence but frankly I can't be bothered.
I'm going to weigh in as a previous owner of a four-wheeled fast-fridge (Gof GTI with a tune), and a current owner of an e46 M3 CS.
Loved the fast fridge because it was a laugh keeping up with much more exotic cars for the money. That was it's entertainment value.
But it was no comparison to the M3. A grumpy S54 in the morning, heavy steering and an unhappy and dim-witted gearbox. Push through, wake it up, let it warm, and then slowly infiltrate the power band. Ease onto the motorway. Back off the motorway, and onto the twisty B-roads. Un-clip the leash. Revealed is a shimmering engine, immediate throttle response and noise, noise, noise!
So much character and excitement, plenty of punch to scare you when you overdrive the left-hander, and, at its absolute best when you go in slow and give it a jab on exit to let the tail wiggle out and chase the redline all the way up the hill with the wailing straight six bouncing off the trees behind you.
Not saying you can't have some of that fun in a fridge, but you certainly can't have all of it.
I also can't say I notice a 'lack of' torque. It is simply that torque doesn't dominate the driving experience - it is there when you need it (and impressively in the case of the S54 it arrives from 2k), and you don't get any more than is necessary for the task of being brisk, and having fun.
Loved the fast fridge because it was a laugh keeping up with much more exotic cars for the money. That was it's entertainment value.
But it was no comparison to the M3. A grumpy S54 in the morning, heavy steering and an unhappy and dim-witted gearbox. Push through, wake it up, let it warm, and then slowly infiltrate the power band. Ease onto the motorway. Back off the motorway, and onto the twisty B-roads. Un-clip the leash. Revealed is a shimmering engine, immediate throttle response and noise, noise, noise!
So much character and excitement, plenty of punch to scare you when you overdrive the left-hander, and, at its absolute best when you go in slow and give it a jab on exit to let the tail wiggle out and chase the redline all the way up the hill with the wailing straight six bouncing off the trees behind you.
Not saying you can't have some of that fun in a fridge, but you certainly can't have all of it.
I also can't say I notice a 'lack of' torque. It is simply that torque doesn't dominate the driving experience - it is there when you need it (and impressively in the case of the S54 it arrives from 2k), and you don't get any more than is necessary for the task of being brisk, and having fun.
original guvnor said:
It's no surprise that a 2006 NA car is now being caught by newer, cheaper machinery but it's still a fast car. 0-130 in 20.0 as tested by Autocar. Based on their performance figures, conducted using the same methods, it's quicker to 130mph than a Mk 1 RS3, 1M Coupe, M135i, Golf R, Focus RS Mk 1,2 and 3, miles quicker than most other hot hatches and identical to a Mk 1 TTRS. I'm talking standard cars of course. Apples with apples not apples with pears. .
That's the thing about these cars though, they are always just a few quid away from producing absolute monsters, £600 thrown at a DSG R for example gets a 0-100mph time of 9 seconds (370bhp), £1,500 and your looking at well over 400bhp and 0-100mph's in mid to low 8's 
Talking of comparing apples with apples, when you take account for inflation, the Z4M started at £56k, Golf R's / 135's can be had for £27k ish and the latest RS was available from £29,500 - just saying. Turbos are changing the game....
Edited by Tuvra on Wednesday 8th June 08:21
I've had two Z4M roadsters---I have one currently---by any standards they are still quick and fun to drive---having said that you're always going to find something that's quicker some day---you have to ask yourself "do I want to drive a BMW Z4M or a tin can with another tin can pumping up the engine ?"
The S54 doesn't exactly "lack torque", my Z4 M and M3 have both spun the wheels in third in winter. However, what it does lack is a massive shove at 2,000rpm. Like every single Ferrari before the F430, if you need to make swift progress you have to live in the top half of the rev range. And then it's dynamite.
I was on a driving tour the other day and had a great run in my 370Z, following an E46 M3 and a Ferrari F430 over miles of empty Welsh country roads. There was surprisngly little separating the three, other than a bit more straight line pace for the Ferrari.
However, all of us struggled to stay with a Golf R and A45 AMG that were also on the tour. Both are incredibly quick cars ad it isn't the first time I have been humbled by them on winding roads.
I imagine I was having more fun in my 370Z though, feeling the weight shift around in the corners and managing thottle inputs, rather than just using the throttle like an on/ off switch.
Or maybe I just tell myself that to justify being pasted by hot hatches!
However, all of us struggled to stay with a Golf R and A45 AMG that were also on the tour. Both are incredibly quick cars ad it isn't the first time I have been humbled by them on winding roads.
I imagine I was having more fun in my 370Z though, feeling the weight shift around in the corners and managing thottle inputs, rather than just using the throttle like an on/ off switch.
Or maybe I just tell myself that to justify being pasted by hot hatches!
James Junior said:
I was on a driving tour the other day and had a great run in my 370Z, following an E46 M3 and a Ferrari F430 over miles of empty Welsh country roads. There was surprisngly little separating the three, other than a bit more straight line pace for the Ferrari.
However, all of us struggled to stay with a Golf R and A45 AMG that were also on the tour. Both are incredibly quick cars ad it isn't the first time I have been humbled by them on winding roads.
I imagine I was having more fun in my 370Z though, feeling the weight shift around in the corners and managing thottle inputs, rather than just using the throttle like an on/ off switch.
Or maybe I just tell myself that to justify being pasted by hot hatches!
I have had TVR's so appreciate lightweight, high powered, unassisted driving but for me it wasn't as much fun as everyone makes out, I was constantly aware that at any moment the car could turn around and bite me on the arse, this niggly feeling really tainted the experience for me. I also ran a GT86 for a month or so, it was reasonably fun but it simply wasn't fast enough for me, although if it had 300bhp and slightly wider tyres to account for the extra power, I'm sure it would be a hoot.However, all of us struggled to stay with a Golf R and A45 AMG that were also on the tour. Both are incredibly quick cars ad it isn't the first time I have been humbled by them on winding roads.
I imagine I was having more fun in my 370Z though, feeling the weight shift around in the corners and managing thottle inputs, rather than just using the throttle like an on/ off switch.
Or maybe I just tell myself that to justify being pasted by hot hatches!
The way I see it, people like different things and that is what I think a lot of people struggle to understand here (on PH), especially the older generation.
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