When can we expect an AWD M5?
Discussion
mondie said:
I considered the RS6 Paul but it was just too much money so we bought an A8 4.2 TDi and a weekend car. Once I can have an AWD M5 I will be back in. An adjustable centre diff would be great in the M5, adjustable from 80/20 to 50/50. Sorted! Be nice to think that BMW would make both AWD and RWD versions but I cannot see that happening, the volumes would be to small in RWD for both surely.
A8 will be a great car especially with that engine.Yeah look forward to se what BMW do. I agree the RS6 is expensive and I did ponder for a while before buying. Pity BMW as so slow to catch up. They eventually went turbo charged now just waiting for 4wd now across the range. The diehards wont be happy as usually but need to move with the times.
I guess it's all about having the choice. I too can't see BMW manufacturing 2 versions of the next M5, one being RWD & one being AWD, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out. Oddly enough they've offered Manual in the US on both the E60 & F10 M5's so perhaps they have the capacity to offer 2 different drivetrains.
The traction argument has never really caused me an issue on track or on the road & although i live further South than Aberdeen, i'm in West Lancashire so hardly a Mediterranean climate. I'm personally enjoying the involvement RWD offers & have adapted to it a lot better than i expected, but who knows how i'll feel in 16mths come change time. Will all depend on what deals are out there at the time & where the various available cars are in their lifecycle. An M6GC for 12-18mths might be fun as i'd imagine BMW will still have epic deals on those, but i'm liking the sound of the S8+ but as much for the insane wafting ability it will offer & the technology it's laden with.
When all said & done, these are great choices & one can hardly be disappointed with any of the cars in question.
The traction argument has never really caused me an issue on track or on the road & although i live further South than Aberdeen, i'm in West Lancashire so hardly a Mediterranean climate. I'm personally enjoying the involvement RWD offers & have adapted to it a lot better than i expected, but who knows how i'll feel in 16mths come change time. Will all depend on what deals are out there at the time & where the various available cars are in their lifecycle. An M6GC for 12-18mths might be fun as i'd imagine BMW will still have epic deals on those, but i'm liking the sound of the S8+ but as much for the insane wafting ability it will offer & the technology it's laden with.
When all said & done, these are great choices & one can hardly be disappointed with any of the cars in question.
paulmc said:
A8 will be a great car especially with that engine.
Yeah look forward to se what BMW do. I agree the RS6 is expensive and I did ponder for a while before buying. Pity BMW as so slow to catch up. They eventually went turbo charged now just waiting for 4wd now across the range. The diehards wont be happy as usually but need to move with the times.
The day BMW go backwards and make an M car that handles and drives like an Audi won't be a day of progress, why would you follow a business you've consistently beaten on driving dynamics. Yeah look forward to se what BMW do. I agree the RS6 is expensive and I did ponder for a while before buying. Pity BMW as so slow to catch up. They eventually went turbo charged now just waiting for 4wd now across the range. The diehards wont be happy as usually but need to move with the times.
Plus I don't think BMW know how to design a car with the engine in the front bumper...
d. Sadface said:
you can keep you 4wd turbo 8 pot ,hell why dont you ask for a diesel version aswell,all m cars should be rwd normally aspirated
A diesel "M" what a good idea why did I not think of that.BMW are catching up though, Turbos, Automatic, 4wd and diesel M. Soon they will be top of their came again. Move with the times don't stick in the dark ages
paulmc said:
A diesel "M" what a good idea why did I not think of that.
BMW are catching up though, Turbos, Automatic, 4wd and diesel M. Soon they will be top of their came again. Move with the times don't stick in the dark ages
Yep, understeer and uninspiring nose heavy handling are the way forward....just make sure it looks the part (aggressive) and who cares what it's actually like to drive. BMW are catching up though, Turbos, Automatic, 4wd and diesel M. Soon they will be top of their came again. Move with the times don't stick in the dark ages
(I believe the above was taken from a recent Quattro GmbH meeting)
Ahhh, that would be the all alloy diesel engines which started production in around 2005 that are no heavier than petrol engines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoRAeL8qgSM
pretty embarrassing result. need more traction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoRAeL8qgSM
pretty embarrassing result. need more traction
paulmc said:
Ahhh, that would be the all alloy diesel engines which started production in around 2005 that are no heavier than petrol engines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoRAeL8qgSM
pretty embarrassing result. need more traction
Not really, Audi & more so the S's/RS's have always been criticised for basically putting the engine in front of the front wheels (R8 excluded). Of the RS model legacy, only the B5 & B7 RS4 managed to carry this off with very little understeer, every other RS unfortunately hasn't.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoRAeL8qgSM
pretty embarrassing result. need more traction
It's an Audi trait & has been for years, however when not pushing on this does provide some advantage to front end grip, but this is dialled out when you want to hustle.
Not a bad thing, just an occasional annoyance & given most RS's never see a track or are pushed hard, the lay driver wouldn't notice.
All good though as RWD brings it's own challenges, however to some this adds to the focus around the driving style.
W8PMC said:
Not really, Audi & more so the S's/RS's have always been criticised for basically putting the engine in front of the front wheels (R8 excluded). Of the RS model legacy, only the B5 & B7 RS4 managed to carry this off with very little understeer, every other RS unfortunately hasn't.
It's an Audi trait & has been for years, however when not pushing on this does provide some advantage to front end grip, but this is dialled out when you want to hustle.
Not a bad thing, just an occasional annoyance & given most RS's never see a track or are pushed hard, the lay driver wouldn't notice.
All good though as RWD brings it's own challenges, however to some this adds to the focus around the driving style.
Yeah but understeer can be dialled out. Which I am looking at, Its not that difficult. Got to say though the RS6 has to be pushed very hard to induce understeer. I feels more surefooted than my old GTR R35 and as you say most people will never push that hard anyway.It's an Audi trait & has been for years, however when not pushing on this does provide some advantage to front end grip, but this is dialled out when you want to hustle.
Not a bad thing, just an occasional annoyance & given most RS's never see a track or are pushed hard, the lay driver wouldn't notice.
All good though as RWD brings it's own challenges, however to some this adds to the focus around the driving style.
paulmc said:
Yeah but understeer can be dialled out. Which I am looking at, Its not that difficult. Got to say though the RS6 has to be pushed very hard to induce understeer. I feels more surefooted than my old GTR R35 and as you say most people will never push that hard anyway.
To a point i agree, however i felt the R35 was less electronic in how the understeer was controlled, but in the C7 RS6 it never feels as though it should be doing what it does. Sometimes a good thing, but sometimes not. Likewise the AWD in the RS feels more intrusive than it did in the R35 as their system only engages in certain conditions so you did have to watch what you're doing. When all said & done though i'd still take the C7 RS6 over the R35, however i'd take the R35 over all the previous RS6 incarnations.modeller said:
paulmc said:
4 motors? 4 wheels drive??
The S is deffo 4wd, not sure about others?
For the Model S there's the 70D(328hp),85D,P85D(532hp) & P90D. All are 4WD and twin motor. The 70D is around £50K and all include free charging! The S is deffo 4wd, not sure about others?
The model S is available in 2wd (rear drive) one electric motor, or 4wd with two electric motors. Three battery packs which basically increase range and acceleration and a P option (performance) which has a larger rear electric motor.
Acceleration is impressive, the mid range option matches M5 acceleration.
Basic 2wd S is low £50's and go up to near £100K for full spec top of the range performance model.
It's an impressive piece of kit and range is becoming acceptable (and I was told they are improving range by about 6% each year) - they showed me how I could have completed my recent trip to Frankfurt with two stops totalling just over an hour to recharge the batteries at their free supercharger plug in points.
I will test drive one when I next change car and can certainly see myself buying one at some point - but not sure if it will be in the next couple of years or in 10 years
W8PMC said:
To a point i agree, however i felt the R35 was less electronic in how the understeer was controlled, but in the C7 RS6 it never feels as though it should be doing what it does. Sometimes a good thing, but sometimes not. Likewise the AWD in the RS feels more intrusive than it did in the R35 as their system only engages in certain conditions so you did have to watch what you're doing. When all said & done though i'd still take the C7 RS6 over the R35, however i'd take the R35 over all the previous RS6 incarnations.
I race go karts and understeer is so easy to dial out its a joke. Audi dial it in (like your M5) to make the car safe. getting rid of it is easy!! much in the same way Litchfield dial it out in the GTR. Tuning cars is not all about flat out power.paulmc said:
I race go karts and understeer is so easy to dial out its a joke. Audi dial it in (like your M5) to make the car safe. getting rid of it is easy!! much in the same way Litchfield dial it out in the GTR. Tuning cars is not all about flat out power.
Not sure i agree that Audi & BMW dial it in for safety reasons & for certain the Audi's are renowned for excessive understeer due in the main to where they choose to locate the engines. Yes understeer is easy to dial out either mechanically as per your Litchfield example, through driver input & in some cars including the R35 this is achieved through clever electronic aids.That said, the lay driver (& lets be honest they're the mass market for Audi & BMW along with their competitors), would not know how to correct more than a light amount of understeer (same applies to oversteer).
Couldn't agree more it's not all about power, but again most follow this route as it's easy & often the cheapest.
Yeah although understeer is easy to dial out(for the most part) its maybe not cheap to do so lol. I have not looked at the RS6 yet. Although on saying that not sure I will have to as I doubt it will see a track
understeer is the easiest unsafe condition to recover from. Oversteer is very tricky and dangerous
If the car understeers reduce power and as long as you have some road left you will be fine. of course if you have a front wheel drive car and big cohonies keep it nailed and increase the steering lock, does not always work in time though lol
understeer is the easiest unsafe condition to recover from. Oversteer is very tricky and dangerous
If the car understeers reduce power and as long as you have some road left you will be fine. of course if you have a front wheel drive car and big cohonies keep it nailed and increase the steering lock, does not always work in time though lol
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