RE: The new BMW M3

[havoc]

Actually (and this is a new point):-

It's all Merc's fault!

This BMW being heavier etc. than any before (and more ££&#163 is all down to Mercedes.


Why? Because they started this bl''dy stupid 'horsepower war'. FFS - over 10 years ago only supercars had 400bhp or more. The E39 M5 getting 400 ponies was considered shocking. Any car with over 200bhp was 'very quick' (Unless it was a Roller, of course, as Rollers would never do anything as vulgar as 'quick'...).

...and then Merc shoved a blower on an already oversized V8...and things went downhill. Everyone got obsessed by Top Trumps statistics, and then (worse in some ways), by 'ring times. To top it all, all the designers got nice CAD stations to use and the sleek curves we'd got used to made way to contrived designs that look good from one or two angles but don't make a cohesive whole (oops...tangent).

...then one day Merc decided that a single-blower V8 wasn't enough, and strapped two turbos to a V12. The first time it was road-tested it caused the Earth's orbit to shift slightly, giving us 'global warming'. And it made supercar manufacturers feel inadequately endowed...



So you see, it's simple. I don't blame BMW, I blame Mercedes...they made the 'game', BMW is just a 'player'. They're doing what they have to do to shift more units.

[Mr Whippy]

Bloody hell, any car is better than the car you have, so why haven't you gone and bought one?

Veyron for everyone, otherwise you don't know what your talking about

Dave

[900T-R]

squeezebm said:

Oh he doesn't buy any of the cars that he is very knowledgable about or even drive any of them,just trolls on and on and on about them.

Says the man with the diesel Cortina... erm, 3-series.

[Pugsey]

Olf said:

Beemer-5 said:

New M3.

If it was 450 bhp and 1500 kgs i'd have one tomorrow.

As it stands, the Audi RS4 is the better car, imo.

So have you got an RS4 then?


p.s. I know what you mean. If a Murcie 640 had 700 bhp and weighed 1200kg's I have one tomorrow. No really, I would.

Edited by Olf on Monday 30th July 22:08

[edb49]

Mr Whippy said:

And the 2nd issue is that they are selling out the meaning of the M badge each time they make a newer model. Why not call this a 340MCsi? Because it wouldn't sell as many? Not bashing those here who want one for the motorsport heritage or whatever.
But we have to agree that there is a majoirty in the marketplace now who just want it because it signified the 'best' one, and that M badge does the job of telling all onlookers that it was the most expensive without knowing much about cars. They are the ones who will buy the expensive 19's and line BMW's pockets nicely.

Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 30th July 17:19

There was a good quote in Evo about this a couple of months back. Something along the lines of, "Yes, you can overtake an Espace in a 335i with lots of turbo torque and very little effort, but owning an M car is about changing down three gears, and hammering it up to the 8000rpm red line past the Espace."

The M3 will deliver on that experience better than any other 3er.

[Pugsey]

edb49 said:

Mr Whippy said:

And the 2nd issue is that they are selling out the meaning of the M badge each time they make a newer model. Why not call this a 340MCsi? Because it wouldn't sell as many? Not bashing those here who want one for the motorsport heritage or whatever.
But we have to agree that there is a majoirty in the marketplace now who just want it because it signified the 'best' one, and that M badge does the job of telling all onlookers that it was the most expensive without knowing much about cars. They are the ones who will buy the expensive 19's and line BMW's pockets nicely.

Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 30th July 17:19

There was a good quote in Evo about this a couple of months back. Something along the lines of, "Yes, you can overtake an Espace in a 335i with lots of turbo torque and very little effort, but owning an M car is about changing down three gears, and hammering it up to the 8000rpm red line past the Espace."

The M3 will deliver on that experience better than any other 3er.

Mate, there are a few of us on here who are actually buying the car - to fill whatever roll we got in mind for it. We all seem happy so just leave the rest of them to stress over how badly wrong BMW have got it, what could have been and what a truly awful car we'll be getting. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Mr Whippy]

So many gimps.

No one has said it's a bad *car* it's just a bad M car because it's selling the M badge out.

Ah well.

Rose tinted specs on... "wow, this new M3 is ace, it just has to be, it's a BMW M car"

Dave

[Olf]

Mr Whippy said:

So many gimps.

No one has said it's a bad *car* it's just a bad M car because it's selling the M badge out.

Ah well.

Rose tinted specs on... "wow, this new M3 is ace, it just has to be, it's a BMW M car"

Dave

We won!

You guys seem to have missed the most important point. An M-car is what BMW want it to be in answer to market demand. Cash is king. Money talks etc, etc. If you want a better car put your money where your mouth is and buy a CSL or buy a 320si, strip the interior and go racing.

JUST STOP TALKING ABOUT IT AND DO IT!

[Mr Whippy]

So I'm not allowed an opinion because I don't have £20k+ spare to just blow on a car? I'll have to watch your posts and as soon as you mention anything you can't afford there and then, I'll pull you up on it.


BMW M *was* about a homogolation special.

Yes BMW can do what they like with it, I would if I just wanted money. Just a shame BMW have sold it out as of all the manufacturers 'special' brands it was one of the purest. It was all about Motorsport.

Just gutted because the market demands the M badge irrespective of what it means, and while AMG and RS reinforce their ethos BMW water theirs down.

Good going!


And after all that, the details are still cheap and crap, and I'm allowed an opinion on how it looks at least

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 31st July 09:27

[edb49]

Pugsey said:

Mate, there are a few of us on here who are actually buying the car - to fill whatever roll we got in mind for it. We all seem happy so just leave the rest of them to stress over how badly wrong BMW have got it, what could have been and what a truly awful car we'll be getting. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I think I've been won over. I'm going to cancel the order and buy an E30 M3, it will be much much better.

[Pugsey]

Mr Whippy said:

So many gimps.

No one has said it's a bad *car* it's just a bad M car because it's selling the M badge out.

Ah well.

Rose tinted specs on... "wow, this new M3 is ace, it just has to be, it's a BMW M car"

Dave

So, are you suggesting I'm a gimp for buying one!

You're the one bothered about mere badges - not me!

No rose tinted glasses for me - as posted some time ago I've driven it - it IS ace. What didn't you like about it.

For a very fast, well spec'd,comfortable, practical road car offering a bit of character and fun along the way it fits the bill for me. If BMW offer a lighter, stripped out version later as you suggest it will hold no interest for me as it will be compromisd on the road and still rubbish on track where a Caterham, Radical or similar will destroy it both in terms of driver involvement and outright pace. I like my cars to fulfill one roll properly you seem to want some sort of compromise solution - I still wouldn't insult you by calling you a gimp though matey.

[900T-R]

Buy a regular 3-series and a Caterham. Problem solved.

[Mr Whippy]

Pugsey said:

Mr Whippy said:

So many gimps.

No one has said it's a bad *car* it's just a bad M car because it's selling the M badge out.

Ah well.

Rose tinted specs on... "wow, this new M3 is ace, it just has to be, it's a BMW M car"

Dave

So, are you suggesting I'm a gimp for buying one!

You're the one bothered about mere badges - not me!

No rose tinted glasses for me - as posted some time ago I've driven it - it IS ace. What didn't you like about it.

For a very fast, well spec'd,comfortable, practical road car offering a bit of character and fun along the way it fits the bill for me. If BMW offer a lighter, stripped out version later as you suggest it will hold no interest for me as it will be compromisd on the road and still rubbish on track where a Caterham, Radical or similar will destroy it both in terms of driver involvement and outright pace. I like my cars to fulfill one roll properly you seem to want some sort of compromise solution - I still wouldn't insult you by calling you a gimp though matey.

But everyone is reading past my posts and making up that I think it's a BAD car, and that as you've all noted a million times, I cannot know, and don't even think! Thats why I mentioned gimps. Read the posts as they stand and don't read into them!

It's clearly NEVER going to be a bad car, I just wanted a sign from BMW M of something new, something interesting, something WOW, because thats what BMW M has always offered, that driver appeal, put the driver enjoyment before everything else!

It's not 'wow' for me, and thats a first for an M car, which is why I'm gutted as a BMW fan because I know they make very good cars, and I'm gutted because it no longer holds the appeal of even the RS4 or C63AMG, which both 'look' like they are just doing what they do best, but even better.


Please keep reading past my points and thinking I just hold an ignorant opinion of what the car is like, hate it, think it's crap, and keep stating 'why don't you buy one' when it's quite clear I don't have £60k to plonk on a car, or the £15k to blow in 1st year depreciation! And even if I did have £60k to spend on car/s, I would never buy a car brand new anyway, I'm too tight with my money

Dave

[Olf]

Mr Whippy said:

So I'm not allowed an opinion because I don't have £20k+ spare to just blow on a car? I'll have to watch your posts and as soon as you mention anything you can't afford there and then, I'll pull you up on it.

You're not offering an opinion, you're argueing from an unpersuadable entrenched position having neither driven the car or having no intention to buy it. Your argument can only therefore go so far before people get bored.

You also look very weak constantly sniping about the m-brand when you haven't driven the car.

You'll notice I don't say what I can and can't afford. My money gets spent in the main on appreciating assets.

Edited by Olf on Tuesday 31st July 09:56

[Mr Whippy]

It's an opinion on the facts at face value, and at best reviews from not bad sources (Evo magazine)

You are suggesting that my opinions on the facts are just bollarks, which is fair enough, but they are no more valid as counter arguements than mine in the first place.

Could it have been lighter?

Could it have been more powerfull?

Could it have been cheaper?

Could it have been better?

I'm just doubting BMW did their best here, and thats gutting as a fan of M cars. I'm sure the older M cars were more about the cars than the marketing stategy, mainly because their sale numbers were smaller so they had nothing to gain from purposely making the M model a bit less than it could have been, to make people jump for the CSL in a few years! (which I'm guessing will not be E46 CSL style, because it's just not market viable (if BMW M are taking that stance which everyone seems to think they are), and they could sell more cars in something thats more half way.

I'm only discussing anyway. I'm happy and interested to read others posts, I just don't get why it always comes down to if I'm going to buy one or not, and then attacking my financial choices or position as a reason why I'm just 'wrong' (the Veyron vs F1 thread went on for ages and hardly anyone here will buy one or can afford one)

Dave

[Pugsey]

Mr Whippy said:

Pugsey said:

Mr Whippy said:

So many gimps.

No one has said it's a bad *car* it's just a bad M car because it's selling the M badge out.

Ah well.

Rose tinted specs on... "wow, this new M3 is ace, it just has to be, it's a BMW M car"

Dave

So, are you suggesting I'm a gimp for buying one!

You're the one bothered about mere badges - not me!

No rose tinted glasses for me - as posted some time ago I've driven it - it IS ace. What didn't you like about it.

For a very fast, well spec'd,comfortable, practical road car offering a bit of character and fun along the way it fits the bill for me. If BMW offer a lighter, stripped out version later as you suggest it will hold no interest for me as it will be compromisd on the road and still rubbish on track where a Caterham, Radical or similar will destroy it both in terms of driver involvement and outright pace. I like my cars to fulfill one roll properly you seem to want some sort of compromise solution - I still wouldn't insult you by calling you a gimp though matey.

But everyone is reading past my posts and making up that I think it's a BAD car, and that as you've all noted a million times, I cannot know, and don't even think! Thats why I mentioned gimps. Read the posts as they stand and don't read into them!

It's clearly NEVER going to be a bad car, I just wanted a sign from BMW M of something new, something interesting, something WOW, because thats what BMW M has always offered, that driver appeal, put the driver enjoyment before everything else!

It's not 'wow' for me, and thats a first for an M car, which is why I'm gutted as a BMW fan because I know they make very good cars, and I'm gutted because it no longer holds the appeal of even the RS4 or C63AMG, which both 'look' like they are just doing what they do best, but even better.


Please keep reading past my points and thinking I just hold an ignorant opinion of what the car is like, hate it, think it's crap, and keep stating 'why don't you buy one' when it's quite clear I don't have £60k to plonk on a car, or the £15k to blow in 1st year depreciation! And even if I did have £60k to spend on car/s, I would never buy a car brand new anyway, I'm too tight with my money

Dave

If you, one day, take the new M3 for a hoon and don't at some point say 'wow' you're either dead or totally lacking any petrol in your veins - IMHO of course.

Oh and Mr Whippy - don't even get me started on depreciation. Most things we enjoy 'loose' us money. Just think of the depreciation on a good bottle of wine - that's £s literally down the loo - or a smart suit, plasma screen, holiday etc etc etc. Life's too short mate. In any event I think you'll find that if you get the very first of any desirable new model you can often pretty much get away with at least six months 'free' motoring.

[havoc]

Mr Whippy said:

But everyone is reading past my posts and making up that I think it's a BAD car, and that as you've all noted a million times, I cannot know, and don't even think! Thats why I mentioned gimps. Read the posts as they stand and don't read into them!

It's the 'PH way' Dave - if someone doesn't agree with your point-of-view entirely, then they must be wrong and must be flamed for it.


Never mind that they might have a valid point and MIGHT not be the polar opposite to your p-o-v - pretend they ARE the polar opposite and argue it. It makes it easier to think you're making 'killer points' in your argument with them.



The sad thing is we're all largely agreeing now - this IS a good car, BMW have badged it 'M' for marketing reasons not product reasons, and it's not as 'pure' or 'focused' as the early M-cars.

You and I think that's a shame for the badge. Everyone else clearly just wants to say 'I've got an M-car'.

[Pugsey]

havoc said:

Mr Whippy said:

But everyone is reading past my posts and making up that I think it's a BAD car, and that as you've all noted a million times, I cannot know, and don't even think! Thats why I mentioned gimps. Read the posts as they stand and don't read into them!

It's the 'PH way' Dave - if someone doesn't agree with your point-of-view entirely, then they must be wrong and must be flamed for it.




You and I think that's a shame for the badge. Everyone else clearly just wants to say 'I've got an M-car'.

Alternatively you could of course try reading other peoples posts! I've said on a number of occasions that whereas a little badge seems to be your main concern I'm only interested in the car - they can call it a BMW ABC for all I care. It's actually mildly insulting sentences like your last one above that result in flamings. Have a look at my profile. Do you REALLY think I need to tell people 'I've got an M-car'. Apologies to all not intending to show off it's just that I'm a petrol head through and through and find generalisations like that annoying.

Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 31st July 11:17

[Olf]

havoc said:

Mr Whippy said:

But everyone is reading past my posts and making up that I think it's a BAD car, and that as you've all noted a million times, I cannot know, and don't even think! Thats why I mentioned gimps. Read the posts as they stand and don't read into them!

It's the 'PH way' Dave - if someone doesn't agree with your point-of-view entirely, then they must be wrong and must be flamed for it.


Never mind that they might have a valid point and MIGHT not be the polar opposite to your p-o-v - pretend they ARE the polar opposite and argue it. It makes it easier to think you're making 'killer points' in your argument with them.



The sad thing is we're all largely agreeing now - this IS a good car, BMW have badged it 'M' for marketing reasons not product reasons, and it's not as 'pure' or 'focused' as the early M-cars.

You and I think that's a shame for the badge. Everyone else clearly just wants to say 'I've got an M-car'.

I thought I was pretty clear - I wasn't being any more 'personal' than necessary...

Armchair speculation and tattle is one thing but such vehement opinion is unfounded unless you have driven or owned the car.

[havoc]

Pugsey said:

Have a look at my profile.

Fair points, well made.

And I admit that comment WAS inflammatory...I was just trying to get people's attention (it seems to have worked). Apologies to you and anyone else offended.


This SHOULDN'T be an M-car in the original sense of the word (hell, BMW's marketing guff still refers to M as meaning 'Motorsport', but where the motorsport link is in this car I'm not sure). IMHO it should be badged a 340CSi. Doesn't make it any worse a car (I wouldn't say no...), just that with a 340CSi badge it wouldn't sell as well to the main demographic...

...which I guess is mine and Dave's main gripe. 'M' no longer means as much as it did. 'Type R' doesn't either, bringing things closer to home for me. And we both know it's for sales reasons. But it's still a damn shame for the true enthusiast who knows that BMW (and Honda) could have done better / gone further...because they have in the past.



Just exactly what are we still arguing over now anyway?!?