RE: The new BMW M3
Discussion
PetrolTed said:
Zod said:
PetrolTed said:
BMW M Series, Porsche RS ... are they all moving too far away from their original design goals in order to sell to the masses? Shame - the cars would sell anyway, but the 'halo' effect of these models may be diminishing. I was very disappointed with the new M5 for example - a car with a confusing identity.
Hmm, I'm not confused by mine: it does exactly what I want - holds four people and lots of luggage, accelerates like a thing possessed and handles amazingly well for a big four door saloon. I hope the new M3 is a more wieldy version of this, not quite the absolute speed, but a tighter handling, rawer machine.
Edited by Zod on Monday 9th July 18:34
Zod said:
but once you know what you want it to do, you only ever use two settings, M button on or off. Then you are just driving the car and it is gloriously fast.
Gloriously fast...What about the fun factor?
Never see many people mention fun these days, just how fast it is and the headline figures of power and torque or something.
Not putting down the E60 M5, it really is a tour de force, but I'm quite sure that it need not have been and still been *a good car* in isolation.
I think BMW today worry too much what their competitors are doing.
E34 M5, yes please, with Nordschliefe suspension and M parallels please!
How fun and basic can it get? RWD, 6spd manual, 6 pot simplicity (all in a line!). Done.
The simplicity and focus on the driver is the appeal, not the headline figures which mean bugger all on UK roads
Dave
PetrolTed said:
Olf said:
If I was the editor I'd be asking for a rewite on crud like that. How does it compare to the 4 seat merc, how does it compare to the forthcoming RS5 (if there's one the S5 if not)...
Way too harsh. This was just the type of review I've been craving since I set up PH. Gives a good insight into what a new car is like without fawning to the manufacturer and from someone who's got sufficient experience that I trust his opinion. I thought it very useful. Anyway... back to the car...
I have also been quite dissapointed with a few of the articles I have seen published, not least because I was there in Marbella, drove the same cars (prepped by the same BMW team) and drove them on the same roads. I also compared it directly to an RS4 and a day later jumped into my M3 CSL, so have a pretty recent reference point for how it actually compared.
Perhaps this is just an unfortunate consequence of the rush to be first to publish 'something' on the new M3, but the few 'issues' now worrying some people about the E92 M3 are mostly unfounded IMO. As we get a few more articles out on the newstands perhaps the general impressions will begin to stabilise.
Mr Whippy said:
Zod said:
but once you know what you want it to do, you only ever use two settings, M button on or off. Then you are just driving the car and it is gloriously fast.
Gloriously fast...What about the fun factor?
Never see many people mention fun these days, just how fast it is and the headline figures of power and torque or something.
Not putting down the E60 M5, it really is a tour de force, but I'm quite sure that it need not have been and still been *a good car* in isolation.
I think BMW today worry too much what their competitors are doing.
E34 M5, yes please, with Nordschliefe suspension and M parallels please!
How fun and basic can it get? RWD, 6spd manual, 6 pot simplicity (all in a line!). Done.
The simplicity and focus on the driver is the appeal, not the headline figures which mean bugger all on UK roads
Dave
But how many people with, say, £30k to spend on a 'sports car' get an Elise/Exige? Or a Monaro? Hell, even an Evo? Nah...most go for the badge over the ability - the 325Ci, the Boxster (non-S), the SLK200K. Some go for the 350Z, but that's because of it's looks, not it's ability...a good driver will get more out of an S2000.
The market wants badge, wants looks, wants toys. And that's at £30k. At £50k, it's worse - look how few Nobles have sold, how few NSXs, how few TVRs. Compared to M3s, Z4Ms, SLK55's, RS4s, Cayman/Boxster-S's. The Kraut badges have it sewn up because most people would rather 'wear' their performance than actually use it (it'd probably scare them if they did).
And moreover (as if the badge wasn't enough to them) these people make a few elementary mistakes, aided by effective marketing:-
- Power = performance - "My car's got 400bhp, yours has 300, so mine's faster!"
- Driver aids = quicker on the road - "My has ASM, PSM, DSC, ABS, AYC and 10CC, so I can drive quicker than that TVR."
- A race-badge = 'proper drivers car' - M-Sport, AMG, S/RS, hell even GTi. Sadly that's not been true for about 20 years...although Audi DO seem to be trying (which out of all the German badges surprises me the most).
DoctorD, how did it compare to the CSL? Can you give some further info?
As a former owner of a CSL I loved mine, as all CSL owners know, boot one out of a tight corner M sport enabled and it's a mile of smiles.
I must be in the tiny minority but I like the look of this car, colour shown is naff but it looks hunkered and mean and can't go wrong with a NA V8.
Most people who buy this will want a practical, fast, good looking well built, fun, safe, RWD saloon and the M will fit the bill. It has to have a bit of luxury as well. The CSL is for people who want a more basic ride with a bit more visceral feel to it. BMW has one thing right, they know they're market.
I drive a 911 now, but still miss my CSL, was a top car. I just hope the next one comes with a manual option, not that SMG2 was bad, just prefer a manual gearbox.
As a former owner of a CSL I loved mine, as all CSL owners know, boot one out of a tight corner M sport enabled and it's a mile of smiles.
I must be in the tiny minority but I like the look of this car, colour shown is naff but it looks hunkered and mean and can't go wrong with a NA V8.
Most people who buy this will want a practical, fast, good looking well built, fun, safe, RWD saloon and the M will fit the bill. It has to have a bit of luxury as well. The CSL is for people who want a more basic ride with a bit more visceral feel to it. BMW has one thing right, they know they're market.
I drive a 911 now, but still miss my CSL, was a top car. I just hope the next one comes with a manual option, not that SMG2 was bad, just prefer a manual gearbox.
Lagerlout said:
DoctorD, how did it compare to the CSL? Can you give some further info?
As a former owner of a CSL I loved mine, as all CSL owners know, boot one out of a tight corner M sport enabled and it's a mile of smiles.
I must be in the tiny minority but I like the look of this car, colour shown is naff but it looks hunkered and mean and can't go wrong with a NA V8.
Most people who buy this will want a practical, fast, good looking well built, fun, safe, RWD saloon and the M will fit the bill. It has to have a bit of luxury as well. The CSL is for people who want a more basic ride with a bit more visceral feel to it. BMW has one thing right, they know they're market.
I drive a 911 now, but still miss my CSL, was a top car. I just hope the next one comes with a manual option, not that SMG2 was bad, just prefer a manual gearbox.
The overriding impression I gained of the E92 M3 was of a car that bridged the gap between regular M3 and CSL. Compared to the E46 M3, it rolled a lot less, changed direction more quickly, steered more directly and generally felt a little more planted. However the engine feels and sounds straight out of a CSL. Whereas the E46 M3 was all raspy and needed to be revved, this new V8 is bombastic in its vocality and has more layers of sound and emotion. A worthy successor to the old straight six. It also feels and sounds nothing like a V8, much harder to pin-point like Ferrari's V8. So the engine feels raw and aggressive, but the chassis feels like a M3 but with more adjustability (via EDC) to allow more comfort as required. As a former owner of a CSL I loved mine, as all CSL owners know, boot one out of a tight corner M sport enabled and it's a mile of smiles.
I must be in the tiny minority but I like the look of this car, colour shown is naff but it looks hunkered and mean and can't go wrong with a NA V8.
Most people who buy this will want a practical, fast, good looking well built, fun, safe, RWD saloon and the M will fit the bill. It has to have a bit of luxury as well. The CSL is for people who want a more basic ride with a bit more visceral feel to it. BMW has one thing right, they know they're market.
I drive a 911 now, but still miss my CSL, was a top car. I just hope the next one comes with a manual option, not that SMG2 was bad, just prefer a manual gearbox.
So roughly speaking, picture an M3, insert CSL-like engine and make it as friendly and balanced as previous generations were with 100 bhp less. That about sums it up. A CSL owner who bought the CSL over the E46 M3, because the M3 felt too subtle, would be able to enjoy an E92 M3 without needing the full semi-skimmed racer effect. And whilst the E92 M3 stands pretty soundly on its own two feet, it would make you salivate for what a CSL version of the E92 could be like. I'd say put your name down for a E92 CSL, just in case you want to sample it for yourself.
PetrolTed said:
Olf said:
If I was the editor I'd be asking for a rewite on crud like that. How does it compare to the 4 seat merc, how does it compare to the forthcoming RS5 (if there's one the S5 if not)...
Way too harsh. This was just the type of review I've been craving since I set up PH. Gives a good insight into what a new car is like without fawning to the manufacturer and from someone who's got sufficient experience that I trust his opinion. I thought it very useful. DoctorD said:
...this new V8 is bombastic in its vocality and has more layers of sound and emotion. A worthy successor to the old straight six. It also feels and sounds nothing like a V8, much harder to pin-point like Ferrari's V8. So the engine feels raw and aggressive...
Nice words.I find this "clusterpanning" of the new M3 interesting and inevitable. As stated above the E36 was condemned for not being as engaging as the E30. The E46 similarly so and so it continues. And yet, again as stated above, the E30 wasn't the weapon of choice in group tests in its time. The E36 now gets praised almost universally and people are bemoaning the passing on of the E46 like a favourite friend. (FFS people moaned about the 205GTis lift off oversteer in original tests and for the following 10 years - now you can't shut them up going on about how great they are!).
People don't like change. They like cars they're familiar with, have had fun in, or owned and have a connection with. That's impossible with a new car and coupled with the expectation for a new M car it will always be a struggle for the new car to deliver instant satisfaction.
The new M3 will be awesome. Fact. It can't fail to be at least as engaging as an RS4 which is like playing Gran Turismo, but with less feel. It will, again, be at least as good as the equivalent AMG because it will have a manual 'box and work on track without the transmission spitting the dummy and going into limp home.
Let's face it, Jo Bloggs - man in the street would think any of them was the greatest thing he's ever experienced and those in the position to buy will make their own minds up.
Of course there'll be a CSL. BMW want to sell cars at the end of the day and the market will demand such a car. It too will be an awesome bit of kit.
Finally, the general recent trends have been for cars to get bigger and heavier. All the manufacturers are now saying they'll stop chasing power and shed weight to gain performance and reduce CO emissions. Hopefully cars will now stop getting larger as well....otherwise we'll have to make all car parking spaces bigger etc etc
People don't like change. They like cars they're familiar with, have had fun in, or owned and have a connection with. That's impossible with a new car and coupled with the expectation for a new M car it will always be a struggle for the new car to deliver instant satisfaction.
The new M3 will be awesome. Fact. It can't fail to be at least as engaging as an RS4 which is like playing Gran Turismo, but with less feel. It will, again, be at least as good as the equivalent AMG because it will have a manual 'box and work on track without the transmission spitting the dummy and going into limp home.
Let's face it, Jo Bloggs - man in the street would think any of them was the greatest thing he's ever experienced and those in the position to buy will make their own minds up.
Of course there'll be a CSL. BMW want to sell cars at the end of the day and the market will demand such a car. It too will be an awesome bit of kit.
Finally, the general recent trends have been for cars to get bigger and heavier. All the manufacturers are now saying they'll stop chasing power and shed weight to gain performance and reduce CO emissions. Hopefully cars will now stop getting larger as well....otherwise we'll have to make all car parking spaces bigger etc etc
Thom said:
article said:
295lb ft of torque at 3,900rpm
In pure BMW fashion they have forgotten to put some torque in there. Hopefully Alpina will quickly correct this with a turbocharged engine.
Edited by Thom on Sunday 8th July 11:25
Mr Whippy said:
Zod said:
but once you know what you want it to do, you only ever use two settings, M button on or off. Then you are just driving the car and it is gloriously fast.
Gloriously fast...What about the fun factor?
Never see many people mention fun these days, just how fast it is and the headline figures of power and torque or something.
Not putting down the E60 M5, it really is a tour de force, but I'm quite sure that it need not have been and still been *a good car* in isolation.
I think BMW today worry too much what their competitors are doing.
E34 M5, yes please, with Nordschliefe suspension and M parallels please!
How fun and basic can it get? RWD, 6spd manual, 6 pot simplicity (all in a line!). Done.
The simplicity and focus on the driver is the appeal, not the headline figures which mean bugger all on UK roads
Dave
It IS fun. I defy anyone to drive one outside town and not enjoy it. OK, so I have to shave off more speed before tight bends than I did in the CSL, but I can come out of them incredibly quickly. It's easy to read reviews and imagine it's like playing a PS game, but it's nothing like that. It's a car with a massively powerful engine, four big tyres, a very clever LSD and a gearbox that some love and some hate. Believe me, if you get it wrong driving an M5, it punishes you. If you get it right, it is fantastic. It is not some pre-programmed ride on rails.
Drive one for a weekend and see.
havoc said:
Mr Whippy said:
Zod said:
but once you know what you want it to do, you only ever use two settings, M button on or off. Then you are just driving the car and it is gloriously fast.
Gloriously fast...What about the fun factor?
Never see many people mention fun these days, just how fast it is and the headline figures of power and torque or something.
Not putting down the E60 M5, it really is a tour de force, but I'm quite sure that it need not have been and still been *a good car* in isolation.
I think BMW today worry too much what their competitors are doing.
E34 M5, yes please, with Nordschliefe suspension and M parallels please!
How fun and basic can it get? RWD, 6spd manual, 6 pot simplicity (all in a line!). Done.
The simplicity and focus on the driver is the appeal, not the headline figures which mean bugger all on UK roads
Dave
But how many people with, say, £30k to spend on a 'sports car' get an Elise/Exige? Or a Monaro? Hell, even an Evo? Nah...most go for the badge over the ability - the 325Ci, the Boxster (non-S), the SLK200K. Some go for the 350Z, but that's because of it's looks, not it's ability...a good driver will get more out of an S2000.
The market wants badge, wants looks, wants toys. And that's at £30k. At £50k, it's worse - look how few Nobles have sold, how few NSXs, how few TVRs. Compared to M3s, Z4Ms, SLK55's, RS4s, Cayman/Boxster-S's. The Kraut badges have it sewn up because most people would rather 'wear' their performance than actually use it (it'd probably scare them if they did).
And moreover (as if the badge wasn't enough to them) these people make a few elementary mistakes, aided by effective marketing:-
- Power = performance - "My car's got 400bhp, yours has 300, so mine's faster!"
- Driver aids = quicker on the road - "My has ASM, PSM, DSC, ABS, AYC and 10CC, so I can drive quicker than that TVR."
- A race-badge = 'proper drivers car' - M-Sport, AMG, S/RS, hell even GTi. Sadly that's not been true for about 20 years...although Audi DO seem to be trying (which out of all the German badges surprises me the most).
Why does someone like me have an M5, not a Noble? Because a Noble won't take kids, wife and luggage. It's also not very practical around London. Once i rebuild my garage, perhaps I will go for another toy.
As for Audi trying harder: 1. they need to; 2. great new engine; 3. still have to learn where to put the engine, guys.
Zod said:
havoc said:
Mr Whippy said:
Zod said:
but once you know what you want it to do, you only ever use two settings, M button on or off. Then you are just driving the car and it is gloriously fast.
Gloriously fast...What about the fun factor?
Never see many people mention fun these days, just how fast it is and the headline figures of power and torque or something.
Not putting down the E60 M5, it really is a tour de force, but I'm quite sure that it need not have been and still been *a good car* in isolation.
I think BMW today worry too much what their competitors are doing.
E34 M5, yes please, with Nordschliefe suspension and M parallels please!
How fun and basic can it get? RWD, 6spd manual, 6 pot simplicity (all in a line!). Done.
The simplicity and focus on the driver is the appeal, not the headline figures which mean bugger all on UK roads
Dave
But how many people with, say, £30k to spend on a 'sports car' get an Elise/Exige? Or a Monaro? Hell, even an Evo? Nah...most go for the badge over the ability - the 325Ci, the Boxster (non-S), the SLK200K. Some go for the 350Z, but that's because of it's looks, not it's ability...a good driver will get more out of an S2000.
The market wants badge, wants looks, wants toys. And that's at £30k. At £50k, it's worse - look how few Nobles have sold, how few NSXs, how few TVRs. Compared to M3s, Z4Ms, SLK55's, RS4s, Cayman/Boxster-S's. The Kraut badges have it sewn up because most people would rather 'wear' their performance than actually use it (it'd probably scare them if they did).
And moreover (as if the badge wasn't enough to them) these people make a few elementary mistakes, aided by effective marketing:-
- Power = performance - "My car's got 400bhp, yours has 300, so mine's faster!"
- Driver aids = quicker on the road - "My has ASM, PSM, DSC, ABS, AYC and 10CC, so I can drive quicker than that TVR."
- A race-badge = 'proper drivers car' - M-Sport, AMG, S/RS, hell even GTi. Sadly that's not been true for about 20 years...although Audi DO seem to be trying (which out of all the German badges surprises me the most).
Why does someone like me have an M5, not a Noble? Because a Noble won't take kids, wife and luggage. It's also not very practical around London. Once i rebuild my garage, perhaps I will go for another toy.
As for Audi trying harder: 1. they need to; 2. great new engine; 3. still have to learn where to put the engine, guys.
Now the E30 M3 that's a beauty. Simple and honest in objective and probably the car that started the current obesssion with the decent super saloon. It's a long way from there to the M5 and the new M3. Shame really, evolution creates mutations along the way. Cancerous little failings in automotive evolution. One day BMW will realise by looking back the E30 M3 and the E34 M5 that these were the pinnacle of their driving machines.
(I suppose the one consolation is that someone looking for a 3 year old M5 is soon not going to have to spend more that 30K on getting hold one one. Ah yes, the beauty of time. Todays technology - tomorrows toaster. Anyone in the market for a toasting fork?).
havoc said:
Mr Whippy said:
Zod said:
but once you know what you want it to do, you only ever use two settings, M button on or off. Then you are just driving the car and it is gloriously fast.
Gloriously fast...What about the fun factor?
Never see many people mention fun these days, just how fast it is and the headline figures of power and torque or something.
Not putting down the E60 M5, it really is a tour de force, but I'm quite sure that it need not have been and still been *a good car* in isolation.
I think BMW today worry too much what their competitors are doing.
E34 M5, yes please, with Nordschliefe suspension and M parallels please!
How fun and basic can it get? RWD, 6spd manual, 6 pot simplicity (all in a line!). Done.
The simplicity and focus on the driver is the appeal, not the headline figures which mean bugger all on UK roads
Dave
But how many people with, say, £30k to spend on a 'sports car' get an Elise/Exige? Or a Monaro? Hell, even an Evo? Nah...most go for the badge over the ability - the 325Ci, the Boxster (non-S), the SLK200K. Some go for the 350Z, but that's because of it's looks, not it's ability...a good driver will get more out of an S2000.
The market wants badge, wants looks, wants toys. And that's at £30k. At £50k, it's worse - look how few Nobles have sold, how few NSXs, how few TVRs. Compared to M3s, Z4Ms, SLK55's, RS4s, Cayman/Boxster-S's. The Kraut badges have it sewn up because most people would rather 'wear' their performance than actually use it (it'd probably scare them if they did).
And moreover (as if the badge wasn't enough to them) these people make a few elementary mistakes, aided by effective marketing:-
- Power = performance - "My car's got 400bhp, yours has 300, so mine's faster!"
- Driver aids = quicker on the road - "My has ASM, PSM, DSC, ABS, AYC and 10CC, so I can drive quicker than that TVR."
- A race-badge = 'proper drivers car' - M-Sport, AMG, S/RS, hell even GTi. Sadly that's not been true for about 20 years...although Audi DO seem to be trying (which out of all the German badges surprises me the most).
Speaking as an ex Noble owner (and TVR), currently M5, soon to be new M3, that is just a collection of bar chat, stereotyped cliche's.
The german cars win because as an overall package theyare the better all-round car. I had the two seaters and they were good cars, albeit unreliable and completely impractical as anything but a second car. I now have a 2 year old daughter, so i want the performance AND an element of practicality. BMW are answering that demand and unsurprisingly selling them by the bucketload.
I personally have no problem if you want to drive an S2000, personally i find them pretty dull and the lack of torque irritating when not thrashing the arse of it. However, what i don't do is get on my high horse and sermonise about it. It's what YOU want, so it what's you should have
- Of course i'm buying an "M" because i want to look good at the golf club, have a small d*** and can't drive 
Edited by StuH on Tuesday 10th July 01:41
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