E60 M5 vs F10 M5 thoughts
Discussion
I've just spent a few days with a 2015 Porsche Cayenne Turbo as a courtesy car and it’s recalibrated my thoughts on what was my next attainable dream car; a tidy un-molested E60 M5 LCi…
I’m not an SUV guy at all, I loathe them in fact. But aside from the sheer mass/weight of the Cayenne and the high centre-of-gravity, I really fell in love with the colossal power & torque, effortless overtaking, eventful V8 rumble, comfort, refinement and luxurious cabin... it was very hard to give back and I need those qualities in my life.
Which got me thinking during my time with it... what the hell would an F10 M5 be like and that perhaps the F10 M5 in LCi form would be the better choice; even more power than the Cayenne Turbo(!), similar torque across a wider band, a whopping 240kg lighter than the Cayenne, much better handling & more chuckable, low-slung centre-of-gravity you’d expect of a Super Saloon, similar refinement and cabin quality… the vision was forming in my head and it was ticking a lot of boxes!
But then again, I still adore the E60 M5 because N/A V10, come-of-age styling (I genuinely think they’re stunning now), razor-sharp throttle response, more characterful despite/because of its flaws, plus after reading the S63TU failure thread below I’m now thinking maybe the S85 is actually the better bet. But I’ve only heard of the early 2011-2013 F10 M5s having trouble so far? I could be wrong.
There was a lovely blue 2016 F10 M5 Comp Pack that sold near me last month and I’m now actually kicking myself I didn't go for it because I was hanging out for the ideal year/spec E60 M5 to come along and therefore I could be waiting for some time and missing opportunities elsewhere. Overall price-wise they both come in very similar because with the E60 I’ve budgeted for new Rod Bearings, Throttle Actuators, SMG Pump, Eisenmann exhaust, Eventuri intakes, Evolve remap. However, all that I’ll do to an F10 M5 is put on a fruity exhaust and Eventuri intakes to release a bit more noise, it’s already more than powerful enough.
So given the choice, what would you plump for?
I’m not an SUV guy at all, I loathe them in fact. But aside from the sheer mass/weight of the Cayenne and the high centre-of-gravity, I really fell in love with the colossal power & torque, effortless overtaking, eventful V8 rumble, comfort, refinement and luxurious cabin... it was very hard to give back and I need those qualities in my life.
Which got me thinking during my time with it... what the hell would an F10 M5 be like and that perhaps the F10 M5 in LCi form would be the better choice; even more power than the Cayenne Turbo(!), similar torque across a wider band, a whopping 240kg lighter than the Cayenne, much better handling & more chuckable, low-slung centre-of-gravity you’d expect of a Super Saloon, similar refinement and cabin quality… the vision was forming in my head and it was ticking a lot of boxes!
But then again, I still adore the E60 M5 because N/A V10, come-of-age styling (I genuinely think they’re stunning now), razor-sharp throttle response, more characterful despite/because of its flaws, plus after reading the S63TU failure thread below I’m now thinking maybe the S85 is actually the better bet. But I’ve only heard of the early 2011-2013 F10 M5s having trouble so far? I could be wrong.
There was a lovely blue 2016 F10 M5 Comp Pack that sold near me last month and I’m now actually kicking myself I didn't go for it because I was hanging out for the ideal year/spec E60 M5 to come along and therefore I could be waiting for some time and missing opportunities elsewhere. Overall price-wise they both come in very similar because with the E60 I’ve budgeted for new Rod Bearings, Throttle Actuators, SMG Pump, Eisenmann exhaust, Eventuri intakes, Evolve remap. However, all that I’ll do to an F10 M5 is put on a fruity exhaust and Eventuri intakes to release a bit more noise, it’s already more than powerful enough.
So given the choice, what would you plump for?
TheAngryDog said:
You're going to get as lot of replies from people who will (rightly) justify why you should buy X rather than Y based on their experiences. You'll get people who don't get the V10 and how special it is, and you'll get people who adore the extra torque, DCT transmission and more modern F10 M5 (I am trying to be objective). Bias is a thing.
I can give you my view, but ultimately you need to make your own mind up.
I have owned my E60 for just over 5 years and been through an engine rebuild (at my expense). Despite this, I am still not brave enough to run any car that is equipped with an S63 engine, yet I REALLY like the F10 M5 still and if I could justify it, I'd have one as a daily to go with my E60, but as I cannot do that, and I want my M5 to feel like an occasion every time I use it, for me the E60 is the one.
You'll hear horror stories about both cars / engines. You'll hear stories about the lack of torque from the S85 (and it's true, but, that doesn't really give you the full story, and gearboxes exist for a reason), rod bearing failures, injector failures, dropped valves (I know 2 people that this has happened to) and SMG issues (the gearbox itself is good, it's the electrics and hydraulics that can cause the issues). You'll get told about how the S63 likes to spin bearings, failed injectors and coil pack failures. I know people who have suffered these issues.
You'll also get told about how riotous the V10 is once it has been wound up, the sound, the feel of the SMG as it bangs into the next gear at 8250rpm, how it surges beyond 6000rpm, with the fuel economy of a space shuttle, but the thrill of driving the last of its kind - an N/A M5. You'll get told about how torquey the S63 is, how it will pull from any gear at pretty much any speed. How tuneable it is, how it is better on fuel, but they sound disappointing compared to the V8's from Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and that is a huge let down.
I can tell you that I have driven a standard F10 M5, back to back with my then standard E60 M5 (power wise). Disappointed I was not to get back into my E60, and once the initial joy at having some midrange torque wore off, the F10 just became a bit dull to me. However, that didn't stop me seriously considering one earlier this year when I was debating what to do with my E60. In the end I decided I wasn't brave enough to run a S63 engine out of warranty, and I would want to tune it anyway, so it would defeat the object. In the end I decided to supercharge my E60, and boy oh boy, sooooooooooooo glad I did.
Anyway, as a take away, only you can decide which is best for you. You should listen to what people have to say, but make your own mind up.
Good luck.
Thanks AD, I’ve read your ongoing legendary E60 M5 thread from start-to-present and always look forward to your posts I can give you my view, but ultimately you need to make your own mind up.
I have owned my E60 for just over 5 years and been through an engine rebuild (at my expense). Despite this, I am still not brave enough to run any car that is equipped with an S63 engine, yet I REALLY like the F10 M5 still and if I could justify it, I'd have one as a daily to go with my E60, but as I cannot do that, and I want my M5 to feel like an occasion every time I use it, for me the E60 is the one.
You'll hear horror stories about both cars / engines. You'll hear stories about the lack of torque from the S85 (and it's true, but, that doesn't really give you the full story, and gearboxes exist for a reason), rod bearing failures, injector failures, dropped valves (I know 2 people that this has happened to) and SMG issues (the gearbox itself is good, it's the electrics and hydraulics that can cause the issues). You'll get told about how the S63 likes to spin bearings, failed injectors and coil pack failures. I know people who have suffered these issues.
You'll also get told about how riotous the V10 is once it has been wound up, the sound, the feel of the SMG as it bangs into the next gear at 8250rpm, how it surges beyond 6000rpm, with the fuel economy of a space shuttle, but the thrill of driving the last of its kind - an N/A M5. You'll get told about how torquey the S63 is, how it will pull from any gear at pretty much any speed. How tuneable it is, how it is better on fuel, but they sound disappointing compared to the V8's from Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and that is a huge let down.
I can tell you that I have driven a standard F10 M5, back to back with my then standard E60 M5 (power wise). Disappointed I was not to get back into my E60, and once the initial joy at having some midrange torque wore off, the F10 just became a bit dull to me. However, that didn't stop me seriously considering one earlier this year when I was debating what to do with my E60. In the end I decided I wasn't brave enough to run a S63 engine out of warranty, and I would want to tune it anyway, so it would defeat the object. In the end I decided to supercharge my E60, and boy oh boy, sooooooooooooo glad I did.
Anyway, as a take away, only you can decide which is best for you. You should listen to what people have to say, but make your own mind up.
Good luck.
Ultimately I suppose it’s down to personal preference, as both are great cars but have different characters. The local dealer to myself currently has an M6 V10 (albeit convertible, therefore heavier - sigh) in stock, plus a 2014 F10 M5… I have a good relationship with them, having bought my current car from them a few years ago. I’ll see if they will let me test-drive both cars back-to-back knowing that I'm serious, so I can at least get a feel for the V10 and SMG ‘box (never experienced before) and then the F10 with tt V8 and DCT… then decide which I prefer
as it stands, I’m currently 60/40 in favour of E60, but it’s finding a tidy LCi that will prove trickyrassi said:
TheAngryDog said:
I think it really boils down to what you want the car to do. Daily? F10 every time. Weekend / day out blast? E60.
You definitely need to drive both, and if possible, drive both for more than 10 minutes. Neither will be warmed up by then so you won't get to experience the fun stuff!
For me the DCT is miles ahead of the SMG, but that doesn't mean I dislike SMG - its rawness when changing gear (especially now, ESS alter the SMG parameters so FFS is now quite brutal!)
The V10 really is an occasion. Either way, Lee is right, you can't really lose if you buy based on your requirements.
100 % this You definitely need to drive both, and if possible, drive both for more than 10 minutes. Neither will be warmed up by then so you won't get to experience the fun stuff!
For me the DCT is miles ahead of the SMG, but that doesn't mean I dislike SMG - its rawness when changing gear (especially now, ESS alter the SMG parameters so FFS is now quite brutal!)
The V10 really is an occasion. Either way, Lee is right, you can't really lose if you buy based on your requirements.
A late 2013 M5 Competition has recently come up for sale near me at a dealer…
Very dark charcoal grey colour, red leather (I like), those optional Multi-function comfort seats (very nice), 39,000 miles (tick tick)… I had a good poke around it last night just after they closed and before the sun went down. Looks tidy. However, close inspection of the tyres reveals Falkens on the front and a brand name I’ve never heard of before on the rear – not a good sign and perhaps previous owner ran on a budget / or dealer replaced the rears recently with that brand (they definitely weren’t a mainstream well-known brand)…
I’ll test-drive this Saturday and report back
Very dark charcoal grey colour, red leather (I like), those optional Multi-function comfort seats (very nice), 39,000 miles (tick tick)… I had a good poke around it last night just after they closed and before the sun went down. Looks tidy. However, close inspection of the tyres reveals Falkens on the front and a brand name I’ve never heard of before on the rear – not a good sign and perhaps previous owner ran on a budget / or dealer replaced the rears recently with that brand (they definitely weren’t a mainstream well-known brand)…
I’ll test-drive this Saturday and report back
A44RON said:
A late 2013 M5 Competition has recently come up for sale near me at a dealer…
Very dark charcoal grey colour, red leather (I like), those optional Multi-function comfort seats (very nice), 39,000 miles (tick tick)… I had a good poke around it last night just after they closed and before the sun went down. Looks tidy. However, close inspection of the tyres reveals Falkens on the front and a brand name I’ve never heard of before on the rear – not a good sign and perhaps previous owner ran on a budget / or dealer replaced the rears recently with that brand (they definitely weren’t a mainstream well-known brand)…
I’ll test-drive this Saturday and report back
Update:Very dark charcoal grey colour, red leather (I like), those optional Multi-function comfort seats (very nice), 39,000 miles (tick tick)… I had a good poke around it last night just after they closed and before the sun went down. Looks tidy. However, close inspection of the tyres reveals Falkens on the front and a brand name I’ve never heard of before on the rear – not a good sign and perhaps previous owner ran on a budget / or dealer replaced the rears recently with that brand (they definitely weren’t a mainstream well-known brand)…
I’ll test-drive this Saturday and report back
Viewed the car properly on Saturday. The indy dealer seemed a good honest bunch. They purchased the car with the tyres on it like that. It’s a 5 owner car, which does seem quite a lot, but then again it’s a late 2013 car… One owner only had it 42 days apparently. I went through the service history and I could only find 5 services completed, but then again it’s only done 39,000 miles
Test drove the car (it was stone cold), so was taking it easy until it warmed up. About 2-3 minutes down the road an engine warning light came on the dash and a ‘Drivetrain error” came up on the iDrive. It was in that restrictive power mode thing. After 5-10 minutes I pulled over, turned the car off, let it sit for a couple of minutes and then started it up again and the error disappeared and never came back for the rest of the test drive… The car was now up to temperature by the time I turned it back on.
For the rest of the test drive it was sweeeet and everything I expected it to be and more. Wow. I totally get you guys love these F10 M5s – a unique character of its own. I see what you mean how even in dry conditions in MDM mode with 3rd gear acceleration it still squirms underneath you – I like it! It commands respect
I’ve put a small holding deposit down on it. The initial engine warning light concerned me, and the 5 owners… so I’ve requested the pre-purchase inspection is done by a very good BMW independent M car specialist just up the road from them tomorrow. And I will contact them to see how it went tomorrow… the dealer also said it will be offered with a fresh Service & MOT, plus I’ll look at an aftermarket warranty for peace-of-mind
thanks for the comments all
Having had time to think about it today with my head, instead of my heart during the test drive and letting my emotions take over on the weekend, i will obviously wait to see the report from the BMW Specialist and chat with them. If it's not meant to be then so be it the 5 owner thing and the brief drivetrain error has concerned me... i will put this experience down to being a bit gun-ho and not thinking logically.
Interestingly, when talking on the phone to the BM Specialist to book the car in, he said they're seeing more issues with the S63 and N63 motors than the S85 V10s! Which also goes inline with the recent S63 TU thread on here. He said once rod bearings and throttle actuators are sorted on the S85 they're quite reliable
Having had time to think about it today with my head, instead of my heart during the test drive and letting my emotions take over on the weekend, i will obviously wait to see the report from the BMW Specialist and chat with them. If it's not meant to be then so be it
the 5 owner thing and the brief drivetrain error has concerned me... i will put this experience down to being a bit gun-ho and not thinking logically.Interestingly, when talking on the phone to the BM Specialist to book the car in, he said they're seeing more issues with the S63 and N63 motors than the S85 V10s! Which also goes inline with the recent S63 TU thread on here. He said once rod bearings and throttle actuators are sorted on the S85 they're quite reliable
TheAngryDog said:
I'd just get your deposit back now, the car will probably turn into a money pit.
Being a 2013 it's also on the cusp of being a facelift - is it?
That's correct about the S85, maturity has had a positive impact on their reliability.
Yup it's an LCI facelift and Competition Pack, must be an early CP.Being a 2013 it's also on the cusp of being a facelift - is it?
That's correct about the S85, maturity has had a positive impact on their reliability.
I love the spec, but must think objectively
Update:
I didn't go through with that car and got my deposit back.
The pre-purchase inspection came back with: "Found misfire on idle when cold. Checked running PCV pressures as these engines are known to have piston ring issues."
"Found running PCV pressures uneven - indicating some piston ring blow-by. Further diagnostics would be required to confirm piston failure."
Gutted, as the spec was lovely. The search for a good M5 continues... thanks for the comments so far
I didn't go through with that car and got my deposit back.
The pre-purchase inspection came back with: "Found misfire on idle when cold. Checked running PCV pressures as these engines are known to have piston ring issues."
"Found running PCV pressures uneven - indicating some piston ring blow-by. Further diagnostics would be required to confirm piston failure."
Gutted, as the spec was lovely. The search for a good M5 continues... thanks for the comments so far
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