P5 Puredrive vs Gaz
Discussion
Ab Shocks said:
Howard- said:
Do I need any replacement top mounts if I go for the Gaz/Absolutely Shocks set from MX5parts?
Definately NOPhil for example with the Protech's recommends use of NB top mounts giving more travel particularly at the rear on NA's. It is certainly noticable on big undulations, back of my car no longer kicks out on big compressions like previous setups. Admittedly I don't run my car as low as most people, probably half way between OEM and the average "lowered" car.
Its this height for info on my P5 Puredrive / Protech coilovers :-
Most "lowered" MX5/ Eunos mk1's I see are lower than this.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Sunday 28th December 16:25
Herman Toothrot said:
Ab Shocks said:
Howard- said:
Do I need any replacement top mounts if I go for the Gaz/Absolutely Shocks set from MX5parts?
Definately NOPhil for example with the Protech's recommends use of NB top mounts giving more travel particularly at the rear on NA's. It is certainly noticable on big undulations, back of my car no longer kicks out on big compressions like previous setups. Admittedly I don't run my car as low as most people, probably half way between OEM and the average "lowered" car.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Wednesday 24th December 11:26
The Gaz Gold Pro's are shorter so that you can drop lower but on 500/375 race spring rates bump steer is minimised,I wouldn't drop too low on road springs though.
Edited by Ab Shocks on Wednesday 24th December 12:31
skinny said:
heebeegeetee said:
Howard- said:
I appreciate how good the standard setup is, but there's always room for improvement in my view. Mazda didn't work to an unlimited budget, else the cars would cost three times as much, and they would have compromised in order to get comfort - these aren't Elises or Caterhams remember.
I would basically like less bodyroll and stiffer, more "controlled" hard cornering and a lower ride height. If the Gaz/P5 kits do as advertised and make the sweet handling even sweeter without ruining the ride/dynamics/whatever, then I'm willing to pay for it
The problem is as i see it, is that it is virtually impossible for us out here to better the standard settings. If mazda was on a limited budget, then in comparison we have no budget at all, no expertise and no facilities to test different set-ups. What we do is literally pot luck. I would basically like less bodyroll and stiffer, more "controlled" hard cornering and a lower ride height. If the Gaz/P5 kits do as advertised and make the sweet handling even sweeter without ruining the ride/dynamics/whatever, then I'm willing to pay for it
No, our cars aren't elises or caterhams, but as an all rounder i think they are better, imvho.
it's not about budget, it's about target. mazda weren't targeting me specifically as a driver when they chose the settings on the stock 5. I drive harder than the average 5 driver (you just need to look at most of the 5 drivers you see bumbling about on the roads) and i take my car on tracks - this simply requires a different suspension set-up. Which is why you need places like P5 or gaz to offer aftermarket items.
wim worked alongside Ab's/ GAZ to develop the GDP coilovers, our line of sight is domestic/ fast road/ track so these units had to encompass all.
I'm delighted with the results and expect our position to grow exponentially as the MA5DA race series exposes the performance of the suspension -V- the chassis calibration.
I'm delighted with the results and expect our position to grow exponentially as the MA5DA race series exposes the performance of the suspension -V- the chassis calibration.
Merry Christmas!
Howard - the best advice is that you should try out a few set-ups before parting with your cash. It is very easy to spend a lot of money for not a great deal of improvement.
I go back to what I've said before, standard shocks/springs with uprated anti-roll bars is a great set-up both on road and on-track. Costs a whole lot less than the other options. That spare money can be spent on more trackdays/tuition - and that will make you go faster than any suspension mod. A couple of years ago, I could keep pace with Lazza's supercharged monster in my totally standard car because I had a bit more experience than him.
I'm sure he's faster these days
Howard - the best advice is that you should try out a few set-ups before parting with your cash. It is very easy to spend a lot of money for not a great deal of improvement.
I go back to what I've said before, standard shocks/springs with uprated anti-roll bars is a great set-up both on road and on-track. Costs a whole lot less than the other options. That spare money can be spent on more trackdays/tuition - and that will make you go faster than any suspension mod. A couple of years ago, I could keep pace with Lazza's supercharged monster in my totally standard car because I had a bit more experience than him.
I'm sure he's faster these days
FM solid ARBs 1" front and 5/8" rear http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?action=product...
They really tighten up the feel of cornering without having any adverse effect on ride.
They really tighten up the feel of cornering without having any adverse effect on ride.
Herman Toothrot said:
Ab Shocks said:
Howard- said:
Do I need any replacement top mounts if I go for the Gaz/Absolutely Shocks set from MX5parts?
Definately NOPhil for example with the Protech's recommends use of NB top mounts giving more travel particularly at the rear on NA's. It is certainly noticable on big undulations, back of my car no longer kicks out on big compressions like previous setups. Admittedly I don't run my car as low as most people, probably half way between OEM and the average "lowered" car.
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Wednesday 24th December 11:26
Second, the NA mount has a huge rubber bush between the spring and the chassis. Seeing as many have re-bushed their wishbones, this one is often overlooked. Removing the bush allows a crisper more direct turn-in as there's no slop between the spring and chassis. Obviously Mazda thought it was a good idea......
The only reason I would change over to Mk2 top-mounts is cost over replacing old Mk1 kit that was knackered with OEM and I would suspect that Mazda's motives were cost driven rather than improvement, when you look at the two mounts.
The problem is that in the States they have dampers from Japan that probably are a tad on the long side and nobody can do much about lack of travel, so playing about with mounts is their only answer.
Unfortuntely, despite the fact that UK spec dampers give more than enough travel, the Yanks pass all their superior knowlege over the pond on the forums and we fall for it.
I call it USBS syndrome.
I would go and see a specialist who actually understands a bit about suspension before wasting my hard earned on bits of kit that are not needed but unfortunately they are as rare as hens teeth in MX-5 circles, mostly re-sellers looking to make a buck.
Have look at my Website and you will find a UK list of guys who actually understand how to get car to go round corners.
The problem is that in the States they have dampers from Japan that probably are a tad on the long side and nobody can do much about lack of travel, so playing about with mounts is their only answer.
Unfortuntely, despite the fact that UK spec dampers give more than enough travel, the Yanks pass all their superior knowlege over the pond on the forums and we fall for it.
I call it USBS syndrome.
I would go and see a specialist who actually understands a bit about suspension before wasting my hard earned on bits of kit that are not needed but unfortunately they are as rare as hens teeth in MX-5 circles, mostly re-sellers looking to make a buck.
Have look at my Website and you will find a UK list of guys who actually understand how to get car to go round corners.
Herman Toothrot said:
If you've ever owned a mk1 and you'll know that the rear suspension lack of travel when at anything but stock height is an issue on big undulations.
I think its quite obvious the mk2 mounts are a positive change made by mazda for the mk2.
That's a sweeping statement and a damming indictment of the damper manufacturers that I know is not true because Koni have more than enough travel on their dampers, as do Gaz, Avo, Protech and Spax.I think its quite obvious the mk2 mounts are a positive change made by mazda for the mk2.
I have driven on road and track and never bottomed out because I set up suspension that works at the correct roll centres of the car.
What you obviously don't understand is that Mazda changed the length of the dampers on the Mk2 as well because they didn't need so much travel, once they went over to the cheaper top mount.
Ab Shocks said:
I have driven on road and track and never bottomed out because I set up suspension that works at the correct roll centres of the car.
Is this not the same thing as saying "I don't run the car too low"?The majority of people who fit aftermarket suspension won't run at OEM ride height, therefore theres no point discussing mazda saying the mk2 doesn't need as short dampers as they gained travel in the top mount and its not needed as they send the car out running about 1" or more higher than virtually anyone fitting an aftermarket kit.
]Anyway you've confused me know as previously you stated the new GAZ kit has shorter shock bodies so can be run lower, whats the point of this if there was more than enough travel anyway and its just US BS that there isn't?
Edited by Herman Toothrot on Monday 29th December 13:27
Howard- said:
Herman, your picture above of your car looks like the "perfect" ride height - I certainly wouldn't want it any lower!
Yep - I'm happy with that sort of ride height. Its just that frequenting the forums and trackdays I know full well my car is higher than most mx5's with aftermarket suspension. So I know that lowering is something a vast number of owners and purchasers of aftermarket suspension will be doing. So its best to be clear about whats offered. Protech and original GAZ are not ment to go much lower than the heights stated, so what height does the new kit allow if its been modified to allow "lower"? I've got to say the NB top mounts made a significant improvement over the mk1 mounts with lowered suspension. The car used to bottom out and was very tricky to drive.
I think AB Shocks is saying that there is no need for NB top mounts with their kits as it comes from the factory already designed fit for purpose. To have to use a non designed top mount is perhaps an admission of an inherent design fault. After all, a shock should be fit for purpose out of the box i.e NB shocks for an NB and NA for an NA. It seems, therefore, that the Puredrive Protech were designed for both NA and NB and as such are not model specific.
I think AB Shocks is saying that there is no need for NB top mounts with their kits as it comes from the factory already designed fit for purpose. To have to use a non designed top mount is perhaps an admission of an inherent design fault. After all, a shock should be fit for purpose out of the box i.e NB shocks for an NB and NA for an NA. It seems, therefore, that the Puredrive Protech were designed for both NA and NB and as such are not model specific.
Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th December 17:43
maz8062 said:
I've got to say the NB top mounts made a significant improvement over the mk1 mounts with lowered suspension. The car used to bottom out and was very tricky to drive.
I think AB Shocks is saying that there is no need for NB top mounts with their kits as it comes from the factory already designed fit for purpose. To have to use a non designed top mount is perhaps an admission of an inherent design fault. After all, a shock should be fit for purpose out of the box i.e NB shocks for an NB and NA for an NA. It seems, therefore, that the Puredrive Protech were designed for both NA and NB and as such are not model specific.
I don't believe you have to use the NB mounts, but the NB mount will provide more travel so is beneficial.I think AB Shocks is saying that there is no need for NB top mounts with their kits as it comes from the factory already designed fit for purpose. To have to use a non designed top mount is perhaps an admission of an inherent design fault. After all, a shock should be fit for purpose out of the box i.e NB shocks for an NB and NA for an NA. It seems, therefore, that the Puredrive Protech were designed for both NA and NB and as such are not model specific.
Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th December 17:43
Herman Toothrot said:
]Anyway you've confused me know as previously you stated the new GAZ kit has shorter shock bodies so can be run lower, whats the point of this if there was more than enough travel anyway and its just US BS that there isn't?
That isn't quite the whole point that I made ealier.Edited by Herman Toothrot on Monday 29th December 13:27
The Pro series dampers will run lower but I don't recomend that you run to their potential low levels without either stiffening up the spring rates to Ma5da racing levels, or use the trick kit to re-level the arms, not taking either action could cause bump-steer or other handling problems.
You also need to understand that ideal ride height is about more than just looking good without bottoming out. If the ride height is too low the wishbones will be at the wrong angles which will cause the shocks to have to work much harder. When my car was lower it rolled much more than it does now and the ride and handling has improved a lot since I raised it up to a more acceptable level. It's not just the wishbones either, you also have to consider the ARBs & droplinks too and I'm sure there are other considerations. Simply "slamming" it might look cool but is no better for handling than the stock "4x4" style ride height.
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