Fakes, what's the feeling?

[lostkiwi]

bobbybee said:

But, how would you feel if you made a product, but people just bought fake versions instead?
You'd be pretty annoyed I would have thought.
And if everybody was so smart there wouldn't be anyone left to buy the genuine items, so what would the fakers fake then?

I do agree with the notion of "if you want to buy fakes, then go ahead, not my concern" as it's their money and can spend it where they like and supporting crime is a choice, I guess.

Edited by bobbybee on Monday 15th February 13:11

Homage/Fake - its the same thing apart from a trademark.
So where is the IP? In the trademark???

[poocherama]

Names (brands) are trademarked and copyrighted, not styles. Aspects of the IP may well also be protected though I would hazard a guess that most of it won't be any use in a fake.

If you want a watch that looks like a Rolex Submariner but isn't, there are bucket loads of watches that look just like them. They will of course not have the Rolex branding, which to the buyer of a 'fake', is clearly the whole point.

[bobbybee]

lostkiwi said:

Homage/Fake - its the same thing apart from a trademark.
So where is the IP? In the trademark???

Homage = design ideas used as inspiration from others to produce a similar item, trading on their own name, no IP, patent or TM infringement, so legal
Fake = design ideas used to produce a copy of an item, trading on the IP owner's name, stolen IP, patent and TM, so illegal
Therefore not the same thing at all.

[BOR]

I'm surprised Rolex themselves don't grab a piece of the Fakes market.

Keep their mass-production lines running an extra shift per day, produce identical watches, so no additional R&D, use up their B-grade dials and hands, no boxunpaypers/outer sleeve/odd plastic tags that don't seem to have any purpose, sell at a mark-up of 100% so retail at GBP600 through all the usual dubious channels.

Everyone's happy. Am I right?

[andy tims]

I haven't had a straight answer from the fake fanboys either as yet.

andy tims said:

If you like the design of a watch but can't afford it why the hell would you not get a homage instead of a fake, unless you want to pass it off as the real thing?

Being able to afford (through bloody hardwork) "the real deal" doesn't make me a better person than someone who can't.

Making the choice not to wear fake though, does IMHO.

Edited by andy tims on Monday 15th February 13:53

[andy tims]

bobbybee said:

lostkiwi said:

Homage/Fake - its the same thing apart from a trademark.
So where is the IP? In the trademark???

Homage = design ideas used as inspiration from others to produce a similar item, trading on their own name, no IP, patent or TM infringement, so legal
Fake = design ideas used to produce a copy of an item, trading on the IP owner's name, stolen IP, patent and TM, so illegal
Therefore not the same thing at all.

Agreed bobbybee and if people genuinely don't have the intelligence (as opposed to just playing dumb) to understand the distinction, I feel sorry for them.

[lostkiwi]

andy tims said:

bobbybee said:

lostkiwi said:

Homage/Fake - its the same thing apart from a trademark.
So where is the IP? In the trademark???

Homage = design ideas used as inspiration from others to produce a similar item, trading on their own name, no IP, patent or TM infringement, so legal
Fake = design ideas used to produce a copy of an item, trading on the IP owner's name, stolen IP, patent and TM, so illegal
Therefore not the same thing at all.

Agreed bobbybee and if people genuinely don't have the intelligence to understand the distinction, I feel sorry for them.

Actually if a watch looks identical and has no branding (Homage) and thats acceptable then the only IP is in marketing, trademark and internal movements.
Therefore externally there is no IP present in the visual design, no patent violation and only TM infringement and IP for marketing.
The only way there would be patent infringement is for the copy to contain a patented component, which is highly unlikely as most of these (aside from straps) are internal to the movement and the movements aren't cloned (other than the 7750/ETA movements which are old enough to be out of patent anyway).
I readily accept a manufacturer can justifiably be upset if a watch is passed off as theirs when its of inferior quality but for the first owner (who will be aware its a copy) what's the problem?

[poocherama]

Why wouldn't you just buy one of these? £300, warranty, well made etc? I'm still in the dark as to why if you're buying a watch for its looks (as they all do the same thing pretty well) you'd buy a fake when such good alternatives exist?

[andy tims]

lostkiwi said:

Said lots but still didn't answer the question

Correction - didn't understand the distinction, or deliberately chose to miss the point

As for "only trademark" infringement - imagine it was your trademark. A brand you'd spent years and much money establishing?

Furthermore not all buyers of fakes do know they are not buying the real thing!

Edited by andy tims on Monday 15th February 14:22

[lostkiwi]

andy tims said:

lostkiwi said:

Said lots but still didn't answer the question

Didn't ask a question....

[andy tims]

poocherama said:

Why wouldn't you just buy one of these? £300, warranty, well made etc? I'm still in the dark as to why if you're buying a watch for its looks (as they all do the same thing pretty well) you'd buy a fake when such good alternatives exist?

Indeed, unless of course you want to pass the fake off as real!

[julian64]

andy tims said:

bobbybee said:

lostkiwi said:

Homage/Fake - its the same thing apart from a trademark.
So where is the IP? In the trademark???

Homage = design ideas used as inspiration from others to produce a similar item, trading on their own name, no IP, patent or TM infringement, so legal
Fake = design ideas used to produce a copy of an item, trading on the IP owner's name, stolen IP, patent and TM, so illegal
Therefore not the same thing at all.

Agreed bobbybee and if people genuinely don't have the intelligence (as opposed to just playing dumb) to understand the distinction, I feel sorry for them.

Oh so people who don't agree with your point of view lack intelligence. I saw what you did there. Its as if I don't want to post for the possibility of being classed as dumb.

Can we at least keep the argument adult?

[lostkiwi]

andy tims said:

poocherama said:

Why wouldn't you just buy one of these? £300, warranty, well made etc? I'm still in the dark as to why if you're buying a watch for its looks (as they all do the same thing pretty well) you'd buy a fake when such good alternatives exist?

Indeed, unless of course you want to pass the fake off as real!

Frankly I find it just as sad if someone buys such an obvious look a like as that! Still if people are happy with them that's up to them.
FWIW I'd never buy a Rolex anyway (real, homage or otherwise). They're just too unimaginative for my tastes.

[bobbybee]

lostkiwi said:

what's the problem?

I don't see how supposedly intelligent people, more astute people than buyers of genuine items (who of course are just mindless drones apparently) can be supportive of crime.
How, by anybody's standards, no matter how low, can it be a good thing?

Like the look, buy the look, like the brand, buy the brand. That's it, there is no justification to buy counterfeit goods

[andy tims]

julian64 said:

Oh so people who don't agree with your point of view lack intelligence.

I didn't say that, but those that don't understand the distinction between fake and homage do in my view lack intelligence.

julian64 said:

Can we at least keep the argument adult?

I think the horse bolted on that many posts ago.

[bobbybee]

julian64 said:

Oh so people who don't agree with your point of view lack intelligence. I saw what you did there. Its as if I don't want to post for the possibility of being classed as dumb.

Can we at least keep the argument adult?

Ha, good luck with that!

But seriously, it's not a point of view, it's fact.
Homages are legal, Fakes are not and that's it.
If someone does not understand the difference between homage and fake, then they need to educate themselves in the matter.
As to making a choice to buy genuine or fake, that's up to the individual.

[SlackBladder]

Been reading this thread from the start, and am still undecided.....

However I am about to order a fake for the first time ever, I know it's a fake and anyone who asks will be told it's a fake but there is a personal reason, or logic if you will. As I can't hire or take a 25K watch for a test drive I'm going to spend £500 on a decent fake to see how it feels on my wrist for a few weeks. If I like it then I'll buy the genuine article, if not then I've saved what ever I'd have lost on selling the original on if I didn't get on with it.

[andy tims]

lostkiwi said:

Frankly I find it just as sad if someone buys such an obvious look a like as that! Still if people are happy with them that's up to them.

You say sad, others like them. At least those buyers are not:-
1 Knowingly buying illegal goods
2 Being duped in to buying a fake
3 Likely to pass it of as a real Rolex

I have and have had a number of Rolex Sub / Sea Dwellers since I like the design. I also like that when I sold those I no longer own, on the whole, their value had increased.

[andy tims]

SlackBladder said:

Been reading this thread from the start, and am still undecided.....

However I am about to order a fake for the first time ever, I know it's a fake and anyone who asks will be told it's a fake but there is a personal reason, or logic if you will. As I can't hire or take a 25K watch for a test drive I'm going to spend £500 on a decent fake to see how it feels on my wrist for a few weeks. If I like it then I'll buy the genuine article, if not then I've saved what ever I'd have lost on selling the original on if I didn't get on with it.

So you can afford a £25k watch, but not the depreciation if you buy new and decide to flip it?

Why not buy a pre-owned example?

[SlackBladder]

andy tims said:

SlackBladder said:

Been reading this thread from the start, and am still undecided.....

However I am about to order a fake for the first time ever, I know it's a fake and anyone who asks will be told it's a fake but there is a personal reason, or logic if you will. As I can't hire or take a 25K watch for a test drive I'm going to spend £500 on a decent fake to see how it feels on my wrist for a few weeks. If I like it then I'll buy the genuine article, if not then I've saved what ever I'd have lost on selling the original on if I didn't get on with it.

So you can afford a £25k watch, but not the depreciation if you buy new and decide to flip it?

Why not buy a pre-owned example?

What makes you think that 25K isn't the pre-owned price?

Being able to afford the depreciation and throwing a few grand down the drain are two totally different things.