Oooooh yeah. Am I deluded?

[cyberface]

My first question was going to be 'am I a deluded madman?' but quite absolutely clearly the answer to this is yes, in all time zones.

However I was just send on a fruit-loop chase last night by a thread here and ended up wanting an Anonimo badly, but only if it had the bronze case (something different, you see). This was a result of someone posting a link in a thread to the Jura watches online shop, who happen to sell Anonimo, and also who happened to have a 'special edition' Anonimo Polluce available for a big discount (Polluce Corsaro Bronze, down from £2,750 to £1,925 - below the £2k mark suddenly wakes my watch-browsing slumber up, in general).



Now I much prefer the regular Polluce and the Corsaro, with the camouflage dial simply is OTT for me. If I could buy one of these and swap the dial without it becoming a frankenwatch then please let me know... I love the bronze Anonimo case with the stainless crowns, but would definitely want the normal dial (yellow or orange!) with the plain Anonimo logo. I used to think that the Anonimo watches were too big (in the Panerai style - far too in-yer-face) but the Polluce is nominally 42mm and my Tudor is that big, as is the IWC (which I still ought to get around to selling...). Basically, like one of these (though these are the 10 yr anniversary editions and likely to be stronger money):



There are plenty of reasonably priced Anonimos in steel or 'satinated steel' but the whole point for me is the bronze. Has to be. Seems like a decent deal on a new watch from Jura (and I can't find a used bronze Polluce for reasonable money anywhere) - are Anonimo like Rolex in that they will happily switch dials around if you buy from a dealer? My old business partner bought an Explorer II when I had one (mine was a black dial) - the only one available was black dial, but the AD simply sold it to him and then swapped the dial for a white one... Looks like I'd need to swap the hands as well though, slight snag.

Anyway, having been distracted by unnecessary potential watch purchases (equally anyone with a bronze Polluce with a normal-ish dial who wants to sell... ) I then got browsing SWC's site, having done business with them thrice in the past. Nothing of interest there for a change, until I browse the Vintage section...

Oh dear. There's a vintage Lemania chrono with lovely dial detailing and gold hour registers - it reminds me of something which means that something has copied this watch, being a 1950s piece.



Now I have a mad motorcycle project on the go at the moment and can't afford to buy watches, indeed I ought to sell at least one low-wrist-time watch to go towards the bike. However it's an addiction and I'm looking at this insanely! The question is - wouldn't I be better off looking for something like the Lemania on eBay or an enthusiast flipper-site like TZ-UK (not that I'm a member there, and probably never will be as the forum 'club' doesn't fit with me, but I don't want this to get into a discussion over TZ-UK) because SWC's price for the Lemania is probably over-inflated? Equally, I've got a 2000 limited edition Schumacher Speedy and a Sinn 356-II, both leather-strap chronos (and the Omega is small, too, like the Lemania) and potentially both could fund the Lemania? It'd consolidate the 'little chrono' and the Lemania would be a lovely vintage piece.

What does the commentariat think? The sensible option is not to buy anything, and to actively put some effort into selling some of my watches, and use those funds to pay for the bike. However the bike will be pretty much a 90% depreciation affair (it's a special for me, and the cost will never be recouped, as is the case with most projects). I'd love the bronze Polluce as it'd be something different, but I'm wearing my Tudor most of the time at the moment... but I could see something like the Polluce sharing wrist time with the Tudor. The Lemania would be a lovely swap for the Omega and the Sinn but I'm not sure I'd want *another* small chrono - especially as none of them get much wrist time as it is. I doubt the Lemania would get much either but every so often, it'd be absolutely *perfect* - I really love it, and whilst I'm not really a 'dress watch' type of chap, the Lemania would be absolutely ideal for being subtly smart (virtually all of my watches now, with a suit, are a bit City-boy, apart from the JLCs I guess).

I suppose I could ask SWC what their part-ex would be on the Speedy and the Sinn for the Lemania! What does everyone think about the Anonimo though? And can I swap dials on that Jura 'bargain' - or is it not a bargain?

Questions, questions!!!

[cyberface]

andy tims said:

cyberface - just sent you a link to a Polluce Bronze for sale.

No affiliation, but the price looks reasonable.

Mmmm.... that's pretty much bang on the look I like with those Anonimos... if you're going to have an Anonimo, it has to stand out a bit. And say 'I'm interesting - but I bet you don't know what I am'

That's a TZ job though from the US so I'd have to go through the rigmarole of joining the forum, saying the 'right' things to avoid getting arbitrarily banned, and gaining the trust of the seller (the latter goes without saying but I'd like to be able to do that outside a forum I'm not a member of). Seems a decent price though... I'll email you back on this one.

Assuming I'm not silly and buy yet more watches (though that Polluce is easily paid for by selling the IWC and I prefer the Anonimo as a dive watch to hang on to over the IWC), forget the Polluce in this thread for a moment, and back to the Lemania.

Does anyone reckon part-ex'ing my Schumacher Speedy (rare-ish limited edition and one of the sought-after ones, apparently, though I've never really fallen in love with it) and maybe the Sinn 356-II would be a sensible deal for the Lemania? Or would I be chucking money away (i.e. is the Schumacher Speedy worth a lot more than I thought)? Are there specialist collectors of these Omegas who may see my watch as worth more than I think it is?

Any ideas chaps? Just idle consideration at the moment - have to consolidate my collection as it's got out of hand, but just selling watches won't do since I *know* I'll just end up buying more again. Turning two into one (especially one that is a vintage piece and makes sense to own even if it gets low wrist-time, say 10-20 days a year max) sounds like it makes a LOT of sense to me. Currently I have some fairly new (10 years old max) watches that don't get much wrist-time, many of which are the same sort of style. My grail is to have each watch with a different complication, all manufacture movements, but I'm not wealthy enough to achieve that unless all the manufacture movements are Seiko and Sea-Gull and even *then* I'll struggle because of Grand Seiko.

So considering that I bought the Tudor to fit my general behaviour (unlike Nolar Dog and teh NiNja, I haven't got into the habit of wearing a different watch each day as I do with shoes) - which is to have a 'daily wear' watch and then I pick something 'more special' for the weekend (or 'tougher' after the Porsche Design experience, depending on what I'm doing), my collection is going to gravitate to two daily-wear watches (maybe one, but the Tudor clashes with certain styles) and the rest will be either weekend-wear or special-occasion wear. In other words, hardly any wrist-time. Having ordinary (i.e. can buy in shops right now) but £500-£2000 price pieces sitting in a watch box is a waste of cash because they're still on their depreciation curve and they're not 'special' enough to get pleasure from 'possession' (i.e. just look in the watch box and see my Sinn... doesn't give me the 'mmmm' that looking at my JLC reverso does, for example).

But if I can't resist having these things then a vintage piece to replace the low-use watches makes a lot of sense, since the depreciation curve is done and I love the old movements, they're getting more rare as time goes on. Anything non-ETA goes! (yes, I know some Lemania movements ended up in the ETA catalogue IIRC, but most of the high-end Lemania chronos became bases for Breguets, G-Ps, APs and VCs IIRC? A level up, I always thought).

Anyway off to check the market for the Schumacher speedy. If I can do a straight swap with both for the Lemania then I'll probably do it, as long as the Schumi watch hasn't suddenly become worth £1500 or something!!!

[cyberface]

Interestingly, the Schumacher Speedy is hard to find.

Mine has the silver dial, and looks very much like this one being sold on eBay from the USA:

eBay link

However the seller claims that the 'limited edition' was 4000, and the caseback says '3227/4000' which is very similar to mine (mine has a different serial, of course).

So my watch should be worth around this, I guess.

Weirdly, on the Old Omegas site, which *ought* to have done its research, the 2000 year edition apparently had 6000 made, of which 2000 were silver dial and 4000 black dial. Either this site has got the colours the wrong way round, or it's just wrong. I've always seen more black dialed 2000 Schumi speedys around so assumed they were right... perhaps my watch is less 'limited' than the black ones, and there's just misinformation on the internet? Wouldn't be the first time, eh?



Anyway, sounds like a straight swap would be a reasonable deal assuming the current auction price on the USA watch isn't far off the final selling price.

I *do* love that Lemania. It's really special. As long as the movement isn't knackered and it's serviceable (I wouldn't want to have to service it immediately, that'd be a bit too much like my last purchase from SWC ) then I may seriously consider this. What do you reckon the Lemania would look like on my perforated 'racing' strap I bought for the Speedy?





ETA: just spotted that the eBay auction is for a watch without box and papers. Mine has all certification and box etc. in good nick so may be worth a few quid more. Sounds possible...

Edited by cyberface on Friday 17th September 10:05

[cyberface]

NeMiSiS said:

OP

You seem to be over interested in what other people think about watches you like.

You should buy what pleases you

I know your username is new to the forum but you may have been lurking for a long time... it doesn't sound like it though. I've posted a lot here and am not afraid of ridicule nor censure. Check out some of the replica threads, plenty of people disagree with me. Needless to say, I've been here a while and I really *don't* give a damn about others' opinions of my taste.

What I *do* give a damn about is other peoples' knowledge and experience - on this forum we have those qualities in *spades* and if I throw up an idea about the sort of way I'm trying to mould my collection, then suggestions come in on all sides!

Most importantly, the suggestions may be watches that I hadn't even considered, either because I hadn't much exposure to them, or that I simply hadn't heard of them

Look - the obvious truism 'buy what pleases you' is rather patronising. You've been here a week or so and now you're giving sage mature advice in a manner that suggests you think I'm some overexcited child. I'm a lot older than I look and act, and I most certainly *do* buy what pleases me. I don't think I've bought *one* watch in my life in order to conform, to fit in, to impress or to please someone else. Actually, scratch that. I *have* bought a few watches to please someone else - the long-suffering Ms Cyberface, who now owns (in *my* opinion) a couple of nice watches. Not everyone would agree with me, of course, as neither are 'fashionable'... but she loves her current watch. That's good enough for me.

Then again, I also have mad bursts of 'enthusiasm' that occasionally get the better of me (some may be as unkind as to call me somewhat bipolar ) so come up with mad plans. These days I'm old enough to give *any* mad plan a day before rushing in, and usually this day is all it takes to quash the more impulsive ideas.

Thinking about it, the Anonimo would work exactly the way Tertius describes (whilst he has far better taste than I, I like to think that we are somewhat on the same wavelength, certainly back when I was spending a lot of time in the Porsche forum (I've had a bunch of 993s, he drives a 993) we seemed to like the same things). There's little point in more of the same, and I do take his point on the 'restoration' of the Lemania (though it's still very appealing).

Equally I'm not really after another daily wear, I just rather liked the bronze case of the Anonimo. Perhaps what I *really* need is to get a vintage watch that's actually red gold...

Debaser - you keep teasing me with that Spring Drive whisper in the ear The trouble is that it'd be more of the same. The Spring Drive that I really like is the Chrono, which is both the same sort of size and presence and the same functionality (more or less) as my Tudor. Far too much crossover there, even though the Seiko has the far superior movement, I'm not quite ready yet to chop in the Tudor for it!!! I couldn't have both. And I haven't seen any other Spring Drives that I actually really *desire* - the Grand Seiko dress watches don't do it for me for the very simple basis that for the price of a Grand Seiko with Spring Drive, I could get a used Breguet dress watch... and that is that (got a thing about Breguet, as you know). Is the Seiko the better watch? Probably. Certainly given the age of the likely Breguet (it'd be from the darker times in the manufacture's history).

Andy_s - again you come up with utter gems. I'm now looking on eBay for the Universal Geneve you've posted at the bottom - one of those in red gold with those complications... wow. Doubt I'd pick it up for £1500 though (which is how much the trade are offering for the Omega / Sinn combo).

ETA - $9k, ha ha. Also - your link about the Lemania / Breguet connection, bizarrely is not only hosted by ATG, who made the superb strap that's pictured on my Speedy above (I'd wholeheartedly recommend his work)... but also features a Transatlantique at the beginning of the thread. Which is sitting peacefully in my watch box, knowing it's safe from sale Presumably this was all intentional, you smart bugger

I'm only prevaricating about the Lemania now because of that damn Universal Geneve... at least it's not only a part-ex offer, I could sell the Omega and Sinn and get cash, and spend it on french Haribo sweets if I wanted.

And I wouldn't be bothered if you all slated me for it In fact I'm going to do this right now, one large order of Fraise Tagada coming up...

Edited by cyberface on Friday 17th September 21:52

[cyberface]

tertius said:

cyberface said:

Thinking about it, the Anonimo would work exactly the way Tertius describes (whilst he has far better taste than I, I like to think that we are somewhat on the same wavelength, certainly back when I was spending a lot of time in the Porsche forum (I've had a bunch of 993s, he drives a 993) we seemed to like the same things). There's little point in more of the same, and I do take his point on the 'restoration' of the Lemania (though it's still very appealing).

You are too kind ... and I have now sold the 993 and moved to Lotus as well, have a heavily modded S2 111S.

Re. the Lemania (and 50s 60s chronos in general), I agree it looks lovely, but there are a lot of similar chronos out there, and if you keep an eye on TZ-UK, eBay etc., even Chronomaster, you will see them from time to time, usually at much much lower prices.

I suspect Lemania are among the highest value pieces, but you can get the look for much less. I'd also imagine they need a fair bit of ongoing maintenance, which would probably add up.

If considering that sort of money on a vintage hw chrono, I would look seriously an original Heuer Carrera.

I wondered what happened after you popped into the Lotus forum for a while If you take the Elise on track then drop me a line if you're at a south east-ish circuit and I'll be there with my Exige

Anyway, yeah, whilst I now know I can sell the watches for a price I'd be reasonably happy with, and this would easily cover the mint Lemania example at SWC, you're right and I'm now a little bit unsure about which way to turn.

Initially it was mainly about a lovely hand-wind old chrono movement, in a watch that would be a decent, slim dress watch, worn infrequently when I want something non-obvious (i.e. no Rolex etc. or any 'big brand' that shouts), something old and interesting, basically something I'd look at and think 'what's that - serious class though'.

However for just over £200 'buy it now' on eBay I can get an old chrono (not 40s / 50s though) with this movement:

And that doesn't look like a Chinese Venus (i.e. Sea-Gull) which is what I'd expect at that price - it's actually a Landeron cal.189 movement, hand-wind chrono with date, and pretty rare (best known production use being in the Heuer Carrera Dato 45, according to t'internet). The watch itself is an attractive enough clean gold plated job.

So nice movements can be had for shrapnel, hence perhaps I need to think off-piste somewhat.

Whilst a proper Heuer Carrera, using the ATG strap that's on my Speedy at the moment, would be the 'real thing' that I may have been sub-consciously trying to imitate (I know that *consciously* I wasn't saying 'I really want a proper Heuer' otherwise I'd have already bought one)... I'm not sure that I *desire* one. It'd be good investment material in terms of zero depreciation, but it doesn't have that 'oooh what's that' factor from me, nor my warped perception of 'class' (which for these purposes can probably be simplified as non-obvious, high-quality thoughtful choice).

I have the feeling that I'm not going to be able to get what I think I think I think I want for £1500 though. I think it's going to have to be old, I really like red gold (rose, pink, whatever)... now back in the 50s there were plenty of small Swiss houses making watches from movements bought from Lemania, Venus, etc. (was Valjoux making chronos in the 50s?). Now there's the Landeron movement I've just discovered. So I'm going to do some more research into what were the *better* movements (something 50-odd years old is going to need to be made from high-quality materials if I want it to actually *work* as a watch every so often!!! Or it'll have to be cheap enough for *me* to service...), then look for a top-quality case from a forgotten manufacturer, maybe solid red gold...

Not sure. I may test the waters by making my own - a frankenwatch - with maybe that Landeron Cal. 189 (which is a nice looking movement - no column wheel though, so presumably not 'considered' at the same level as the Lemania, or the JLC movements supplied to VC etc.) with a different dial and case... for £200 it's a bit of a steal really!

[cyberface]

Debaser said:

cyberface said:

Debaser - you keep teasing me with that Spring Drive whisper in the ear The trouble is that it'd be more of the same. The Spring Drive that I really like is the Chrono, which is both the same sort of size and presence and the same functionality (more or less) as my Tudor. Far too much crossover there, even though the Seiko has the far superior movement, I'm not quite ready yet to chop in the Tudor for it!!! I couldn't have both. And I haven't seen any other Spring Drives that I actually really *desire* - the Grand Seiko dress watches don't do it for me for the very simple basis that for the price of a Grand Seiko with Spring Drive, I could get a used Breguet dress watch... and that is that (got a thing about Breguet, as you know). Is the Seiko the better watch? Probably. Certainly given the age of the likely Breguet (it'd be from the darker times in the manufacture's history).

Good points about the Seiko and your Tudor. I think I'm secretly hoping you'll get one so I can read your thoughts on it from an owner's point of view!

I want one myself but I'm not sure how I'd go about it now. Seiya has stopped shipping Grand Seikos to Europe now, and I'd rather not buy over the internet anyway. It would either have to be a trip to the Seiko Centre in Paris or wait until another business trip to Tokyo pops up.

I can't really offer any advice on the vintage chrono, other than that £200 Landeron looks nice!

It's a Lator, and the dial is in good nick. It's meant to be gold plated. It's even got a date complication... and looks like this:


Now I've done a bit of searching and this example is a 70s watch, but Lator have been making identical (appearance) watches since the 50s (i.e. I've seen identical looking watches being sold as late 50s vintage). The older ones have 'Swiss Made' written in small typeface around the date window, whereas the £220 watch doesn't. However the movement (assuming the picture actually *is* what's in the watch) is definitely the Landeron 189 and that's not a common movement. Most similar watches don't have the date complication.

Now if the watch simply had a solid rose gold case and was 50s vintage then it'd probably satisfy me re: the 'bit different' dress watch. But all of these (even effectively non-branded 'Chronometre Suisse' watches with the same movement but an 18k rose gold case) are being sold at £3000 or more.

Which makes the eBay watch sound like a crazy bargain since it can't really be a fake. The lack of 'Swiss Made' makes me a bit suspicious but for £220 and in the UK, I wonder if I could find a solid rose gold case for it? After all, the rectangular pushers and case design seems completely generic as a LOT of OEMs seem to have made chronos with other versions of that movement back in the 50s-70s (the Cal 189 is rare, but the 48 series (48, 148, 248) are not and easily found).

Assuming the cases for the Landeron 48 series movements will accept the 189, then there's a solid rose gold 'Chronograph Suisse' on sale in the US for $599, this has little information with it, the movement appears to be a 48 series Landeron and the pushers / crown look the right shape. If the case actually *is* solid rose gold (the other one on the Bay is listed as steel and 'gold filled', whatever 'filled' means) then that case with the movement and dial from the Lator would actually be rather nice! Total cost would be less than £600 too. The problem is that the USA 'rose-gold' watch has one blurry photo so I can't tell whether it's solid gold or not (no hallmark photos etc.) - whether it's worth a punt or not I can't tell... esp. as I'd be hit by import charges due to the US connection.

A frankenwatch from this would be nice to wear though. May be worth doing for a cheap project...

[cyberface]

LukeBird said:

cyberface said:

cheap project...

Probably the best example of an oxymoron!
Are there any other pics to confirm the lack of 'Swiss Made' on the dial?
It does look like there is something at the bottom of the dial which is hidden by the 'warping' of the acrylic crystal.

Interesting piece though. I recently bought a handwound two-register chrono (although not a vintage one) and absolutely love it.
I don't mind winding it up and I prefer the dual dials to the triple (which can look messy) that you normally get on a chrono.

O/T I'll drop you an email later, I want to hear about the other project!

Well, that's usually correct.

But the gold plated 70s example with the Cal.189 movement (which, from the photos, is in remarkably good condition) seems crazy cheap (£220) as it doesn't say it's broken or anything. It almost looks NOS. Regardless, that genre of movement in a solid 18ct gold case appears on eBay in all cases well over a couple of grand. If I'm ripped off by the USA seller then that's the way it goes (Paypal, eBay, often favour the buyer, so I may be OK there) - but if not, then I'll get a dirty solid 18ct rose gold case with a knackered-looking Cal.48 type movement in it, along with degraded dial.

I simply plan to whip the entire movement and dial out of the rose gold watch, clean up the case, transfer the crystal if necessary or Polywatch the existing one, then bung in the Cal.189 from the £220 watch. Worst case scenario is that the crown stems aren't interchangeable between the watches (possible, given that the Cal.189 has a date complication, but IIRC it's not quickset so the stems *may* be identical) and I end up with a 9ct yellow gold plated crown on an 18ct rose gold watch.

Actually, the worst-case scenario is that I break both the watches dismantling them

Best case scenario is that the Cal.189 is *exactly* as pictured, and fits perfectly into the rose gold case, which is *exactly* as described (i.e. solid, heavy 18ct rose gold). Then all I need is a fine quality leather strap and I've got a really rather nice evening watch that, it appears, would cost me well north of £2000. And I'd have paid around £700 tops... not too bad and a better proposition than the £1500 Lemania that I was seriously considering.

And even *better* if I can get the Cal.48 in the rose gold case functioning reasonably and transferred back into the 9ct gold plated case - and sell it for £220 on eBay

[cyberface]

Well the Lator chrono has arrived, exactly as the photos indicated inside and out (first thing I did was whip the back off). Beautiful, yellow and pink gilt movement - looks superb.

It also looks suspiciously like the chrono centre hands clutch wheel (which appears to be supported only at the bottom) was clouted by someone removing the back - because the crevice in the back for the jeweller's knife was directly opposite that wheel. Opening the back and letting the knife slip in damaged the wheel.

I've gently eased the wheel back into shape and the watch works fully. I've now got to do some timekeeping tests, before I run the risk of dismantling the movement and servicing it. It's clean as hell - I'd have guessed it was NOS, to be honest - and arrived with brand new leather strap. However if this was the case, and the problem was that wheel, and I've fixed it, then hey-ho. It looks lovely.

When the rose gold case arrives from the USA then I'll see if the Lator can be switched into the solid 18ct rose gold case, now *that* would be perfection. The current cheapie 9cy yellow gold 'filled' case looks good enough, the starburst silver dial and gold registers look superb.

There *has* to be a major problem at that price, surely? Anyway we'll soon see depending on whether it's keeping usable time or not!!!

I'll start a new thread when I get the rose gold watch, then I can post some pics of the conversion. I'd LOVE that Lator chrono in solid rose gold, and I know I'll be able to do it somehow. The interesting thing about the Landeron cal.189 is the date complication, which isn't often seen on the *common* two-register chronos from that period...