A320 down in Pakistan
Discussion
focusxr5 said:
Like a series of bulbs for each landing gear which could turn green in the cockpit when each gear is locked in place,? Maybe each pilot could check each bulb has turned from red to green as part of, I don't know, a checklist, just to be sure.
Not really as this could be, has been, and probably was in this instance, missed in a high stress situationBandit110 said:
focusxr5 said:
Like a series of bulbs for each landing gear which could turn green in the cockpit when each gear is locked in place,? Maybe each pilot could check each bulb has turned from red to green as part of, I don't know, a checklist, just to be sure.
Not really as this could be, has been, and probably was in this instance, missed in a high stress situationNobody else to blame but themselves (going on current/available info)
DuraAce said:
Down to the crew to not get into such a situation in the first place. Shocking CRM. The approach should've been binned long before they got to that point in the chain of events.
Nobody else to blame but themselves (going on current/available info)
Yep, I'm with you, based on the info so farNobody else to blame but themselves (going on current/available info)
Bandit110 said:
DuraAce said:
Down to the crew to not get into such a situation in the first place. Shocking CRM. The approach should've been binned long before they got to that point in the chain of events.
Nobody else to blame but themselves (going on current/available info)
Yep, I'm with you, based on the info so farNobody else to blame but themselves (going on current/available info)
Starfighter said:
Your toaster doesn’t take 10 seconds to hold down the lever for it to lock in place. That makes it unnecessary to have audio alarms and voice alarms saying “Toast cold. lever” or 3 red warning light showing the lever was up.
You don't know that. It could be one of those expensive Dualit ones.Trevatanus said:
Starfighter said:
Your toaster doesn’t take 10 seconds to hold down the lever for it to lock in place. That makes it unnecessary to have audio alarms and voice alarms saying “Toast cold. lever” or 3 red warning light showing the lever was up.
You don't know that. It could be one of those expensive Dualit ones.
Starfighter said:
essayer said:
Am I reading this correctly?The crew descended from 10000ft to
It would be interesting to see the graph from the flight the day before.
To do it with the gear up.... I am amazed that aircraft managed to even get back off the deck as they must have slammed it down.
Starfighter said:
Your toaster doesn’t take 10 seconds to hold down the lever for it to lock in place. That makes it unnecessary to have audio alarms and voice alarms saying “Toast cold. lever” or 3 red warning light showing the lever was up.
A trivial example, I'll admit 
I'm just amazed that there's a safety system (overspeed) which prevents the gear dropping, while allowing the lever to be moved - and which then requires manually cycling of the lever in order to try again. Human factors engineering is of interest to me, (largely but not entirely from a software UX perspective which is different, but related), and I always look to the design of aviation controls as an area where they take great care to prevent ambiguity or confusion. I guess my faith is being tested a bit of late.Its not quite that simple though.
They will get a master warning. Plus ECAM will pop up at least 2 messages with 30 second interval. They wont go away on their own.
Plus ding, ding, ding, ding, ding insentiently (you can hear it on the ATC recording) which wont stop until they cycle the lever.
Then IIRC at 750' they get "gear, too low" from GPWS.
I think GPWS might also give a second gear too low warning at 250'.
Its a lot, a lot of stuff for a pilot to ignore. Let alone two.
Honestly, I suspect they will find from past flights some cowboy flying from these guys. Because you don't get into this position by total chance, its a regular f*ck about with their SOPs IMHO that would cause this type of issue.
IANAP...
They will get a master warning. Plus ECAM will pop up at least 2 messages with 30 second interval. They wont go away on their own.
Plus ding, ding, ding, ding, ding insentiently (you can hear it on the ATC recording) which wont stop until they cycle the lever.
Then IIRC at 750' they get "gear, too low" from GPWS.
I think GPWS might also give a second gear too low warning at 250'.
Its a lot, a lot of stuff for a pilot to ignore. Let alone two.
Honestly, I suspect they will find from past flights some cowboy flying from these guys. Because you don't get into this position by total chance, its a regular f*ck about with their SOPs IMHO that would cause this type of issue.
IANAP...
red_slr said:
Honestly, I suspect they will find from past flights some cowboy flying from these guys.
PIA though.......hasn't been an airline with a great reputation for decades........and I'm not sure how much we'll ever get to a proper report either given the way things work over there......there's still been no sign of a report published from a PIA crash that happened 4 years ago......3 or the 4 people appointed to investigate this are from the Pakistan Air Force as well, which probably means this one might go the same way.Although there is hope in that they have given the FDR to the Airbus staff onboard the company A330 that flew to Karachi yesterday and returned to France afterwards.
Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 26th May 13:07
red_slr said:
Its not quite that simple though.
They will get a master warning. Plus ECAM will pop up at least 2 messages with 30 second interval. They wont go away on their own.
Plus ding, ding, ding, ding, ding insentiently (you can hear it on the ATC recording) which wont stop until they cycle the lever.
Then IIRC at 750' they get "gear, too low" from GPWS.
I think GPWS might also give a second gear too low warning at 250'.
Its a lot, a lot of stuff for a pilot to ignore. Let alone two.
Honestly, I suspect they will find from past flights some cowboy flying from these guys. Because you don't get into this position by total chance, its a regular f*ck about with their SOPs IMHO that would cause this type of issue.
IANAP...
That's the point though, all these are in place yet they still appear to have unknowingly landed without wheels, damaging the engines and causing this crash, if the lever physically wouldn't lock into position, they wouldn't have thought they had it down when they didn't (even if they were ignoring other checklist and procedures*)They will get a master warning. Plus ECAM will pop up at least 2 messages with 30 second interval. They wont go away on their own.
Plus ding, ding, ding, ding, ding insentiently (you can hear it on the ATC recording) which wont stop until they cycle the lever.
Then IIRC at 750' they get "gear, too low" from GPWS.
I think GPWS might also give a second gear too low warning at 250'.
Its a lot, a lot of stuff for a pilot to ignore. Let alone two.
Honestly, I suspect they will find from past flights some cowboy flying from these guys. Because you don't get into this position by total chance, its a regular f*ck about with their SOPs IMHO that would cause this type of issue.
IANAP...
- possibly
CrutyRammers said:
Starfighter said:
Your toaster doesn’t take 10 seconds to hold down the lever for it to lock in place. That makes it unnecessary to have audio alarms and voice alarms saying “Toast cold. lever” or 3 red warning light showing the lever was up.
A trivial example, I'll admit I'm just amazed that there's a safety system (overspeed) which prevents the gear dropping, while allowing the lever to be moved - and which then requires manually cycling of the lever in order to try again. Human factors engineering is of interest to me, (largely but not entirely from a software UX perspective which is different, but related), and I always look to the design of aviation controls as an area where they take great care to prevent ambiguity or confusion. I guess my faith is being tested a bit of late.You only want the gear to lower, when you move the leaver. Not when the airspeed drops and you've forgotten the leaver in the "wrong" position.
So either it happens when you operate the control. Or it doesn't happen. In order to avoid an unexpected event in a different scenario.
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