What happened to Air France Flight 447
Discussion
The outcome was very sad. I don't doubt they were facing a difficult and confusing situation. Night flying is very different to flying in the day, having a visual reference when stalling can be very beneficial and you don't really get a visual reference over the sea at night. Sullenburgers situation was different, it was daylight and he had lost engine power, had that happened at night the circumstances could of been different.
I'm not going to blame individuals because I wasn't there. I've had problems in the air (engine running rough, radio failure, Brake failure, aircraft coming in close proximity causing me to take avoiding action while we scooted around the egde of a storm.. ) and each problem is an individual circumstance.
I was quite lucky with the close call and being able to take avoiding action in time. Its easy to say how you think you'll feel at the time, but often when it happens you feel very differently when faced with any circumstance like that. I suppose what i'm trying to say is that some comments have been abit harsh here and its easy to be critical but when faced with an actual unfamiliar problem its very easy to have difficulty with it.. and if you do overcome those problems and live to fly another day you are never really the same person, and what I mean by that is that you become less judgemental and tend to look at accidents on an individual basis rather than comparing them to others or looking at them in black and white terms.
I'm not going to blame individuals because I wasn't there. I've had problems in the air (engine running rough, radio failure, Brake failure, aircraft coming in close proximity causing me to take avoiding action while we scooted around the egde of a storm.. ) and each problem is an individual circumstance.
I was quite lucky with the close call and being able to take avoiding action in time. Its easy to say how you think you'll feel at the time, but often when it happens you feel very differently when faced with any circumstance like that. I suppose what i'm trying to say is that some comments have been abit harsh here and its easy to be critical but when faced with an actual unfamiliar problem its very easy to have difficulty with it.. and if you do overcome those problems and live to fly another day you are never really the same person, and what I mean by that is that you become less judgemental and tend to look at accidents on an individual basis rather than comparing them to others or looking at them in black and white terms.
Theflyer said:
Im suprised by your post.
I thought you would have definetly known that on the whole Ex-mil pilots tend to be much better pilots as a whole package.
Better in a hot situation, much better discipline, usually better concentration etc.
Anyone can be trained to fly a plane, the above doesn't get trained via a book or simulator.
That, my friend, is bullsI thought you would have definetly known that on the whole Ex-mil pilots tend to be much better pilots as a whole package.
Better in a hot situation, much better discipline, usually better concentration etc.
Anyone can be trained to fly a plane, the above doesn't get trained via a book or simulator.
t. el stovey said:
That's not supported by the empirical data using scores from our simulator results/ line checks/ promotion course passed etc.
Perhaps your lot have different results?
Na, I obviously don't have written proof or any stats like that.Perhaps your lot have different results?
It's just purely a trend I and a few of my colleagues and bosses have noticed.
I see my comments created quite a spark though.
Theflyer said:
Na, I obviously don't have written proof or any stats like that.
It's just purely a trend I and a few of my colleagues and bosses have noticed.
I see my comments created quite a spark though.
Probably created a spark, because it's nonsense.....It's just purely a trend I and a few of my colleagues and bosses have noticed.
I see my comments created quite a spark though.
I couldn't make such a sweeping generalisation.
All I am saying is, that's what I and others have noticed on a whole.
I guess it is pretty "sweepish."
I'd like to change my comment to :
ALL of the Ex-Mil pilots I have met have had excellent discipline, excellent concentration, very focussed on the task in hand and tasks ahead, and I would happily put money on that in a hot situation they would be just the above.
Just for the record, I am not ex-mil.
I guess it is pretty "sweepish."
I'd like to change my comment to :
ALL of the Ex-Mil pilots I have met have had excellent discipline, excellent concentration, very focussed on the task in hand and tasks ahead, and I would happily put money on that in a hot situation they would be just the above.
Just for the record, I am not ex-mil.
Theflyer said:
Simpo Two said:
I'd rather be flown by someone who has training AND 20 years' experience, as opposed to just training.
Everyone has to start somewhere I'm afraid.I too think that ex-military pilots are likely to perform better in emergencies - and of course that brings us back to Sullenberger. A different incident of course, but also a different mindset. It is interesting to imagine the crews from those two incidents swapped over and see how the results might differ...
As an aside, 'The Naked Pilot' by David Beatty is a fascinating read.
Theflyer said:
All I am saying is, that's what I and others have noticed on a whole.
I guess it is pretty "sweepish."
I'd like to change my comment to :
ALL of the Ex-Mil pilots I have met have had excellent discipline, excellent concentration, very focussed on the task in hand and tasks ahead, and I would happily put money on that in a hot situation they would be just the above.
Just for the record, I am not ex-mil.
I certainly don't discount that military pilots receive excellent training and generally fly very demanding aircraft on equally demanding missions but in my experience there is not really that much difference in how they fly an airliner compared to the average civilian pilot. In fact I would say that just like in the pilot group of my airline as a whole, some are excellent, some are OK, and some are definitely below average. I guess it is pretty "sweepish."
I'd like to change my comment to :
ALL of the Ex-Mil pilots I have met have had excellent discipline, excellent concentration, very focussed on the task in hand and tasks ahead, and I would happily put money on that in a hot situation they would be just the above.
Just for the record, I am not ex-mil.
In fact in one of our crew resource mang't classes we talked about how some of the worst CRM pilots have come from fast jets in the military. They are used to solving everything on their own and making quick decisions (good for fast jets, not so good for airline ops), and as a result leave the F/O out of decision-making, not to mention everyone else in the CRM world.
Simpo Two said:
Indeed, but (hopefully) they start on 'easy' flights and with someone more experienced sat next to them, rather than just collecting their certificate and setting off on a long-haul flight solo!
I'm not sure what qualifies, as an 'easy' flight. Is it possible to organise every pilot's first few flights on a gin clear day, and guarantee that everything works as it should do? If only. They will have an experienced Training Captain (and a safety pilot for the first few sectors)with them, having completed the approved training course, of ground school and simulator. Long haul solo isn't usually an option 
Simpo Two said:
I too think that ex-military pilots are likely to perform better in emergencies
Based on......?Theflyer said:
Their past.
Who will make a better taxi driver, Mr button or a randomer with a driving license and has been driving for 10 years.
Im sure most people would agree that button would brought the choice, afterall they both have driving licenses.
Might be best to find a driver who passed their test 1st time instead of Button who needed two attempts!Who will make a better taxi driver, Mr button or a randomer with a driving license and has been driving for 10 years.
Im sure most people would agree that button would brought the choice, afterall they both have driving licenses.
Theflyer said:
Their past.
Who will make a better taxi driver, Mr button or a randomer with a driving license and has been driving for 10 years.
Im sure most people would agree that button would brought the choice, afterall they both have driving licenses.
Not sure what you're trying to say (perhaps you're relying on your predictive text, but it doesnt make too much sense to me). Who will make a better taxi driver, Mr button or a randomer with a driving license and has been driving for 10 years.
Im sure most people would agree that button would brought the choice, afterall they both have driving licenses.
If you think that there's no substitute for experience, you might be right.
If you're saying that that experience has to be from a military background, you might be wrong
speedyellowrs said:
Not sure what you're trying to say (perhaps you're relying on your predictive text, but it doesnt make too much sense to me).
If you think that there's no substitute for experience, you might be right.
If you're saying that that experience has to be from a military background, you might be wrong
Yes, was on a mobile ! If you think that there's no substitute for experience, you might be right.
If you're saying that that experience has to be from a military background, you might be wrong
Experience doesn't have to be from a military background but we can't deny it's a very good bit of experience to have and will most likely give an edge over the people who went the other route.
My Button thing was:
Right now who would you rather employ as a taxi driver, Mr Button or Mr X.
Mr Xs past is the same as Buttons when it comes to the PUBLIC road driving, held is license for the same amount of time, done the same amount of miles as him on public roads etc.
Mr Buttons past you know.
There is no shadow of a doubt that you would think that Button would have an extra edge due to his past.
But driving an F1 car is nothing like driving a taxi, just as flinging a Tornado across Spadeadam at 200ft AGL is nothing like sitting in the RH seat of an airliner six miles up.
I know this is kind of irrelevant, but I am a PPL student, and my friend from school flys Lynx for the RN. I was chatting to him about my air law exam and he just kind of dismissed it with 'oh, we don't really bother with that much'.
All flying is not the same.
I know this is kind of irrelevant, but I am a PPL student, and my friend from school flys Lynx for the RN. I was chatting to him about my air law exam and he just kind of dismissed it with 'oh, we don't really bother with that much'.
All flying is not the same.
Theflyer said:
Yes, was on a mobile !
Experience doesn't have to be from a military background but we can't deny it's a very good bit of experience to have and will most likely give an edge over the people who went the other route.
My Button thing was:
Right now who would you rather employ as a taxi driver, Mr Button or Mr X.
Mr Xs past is the same as Buttons when it comes to the PUBLIC road driving, held is license for the same amount of time, done the same amount of miles as him on public roads etc.
Mr Buttons past you know.
There is no shadow of a doubt that you would think that Button would have an extra edge due to his past.
Ok, I get your point now!Experience doesn't have to be from a military background but we can't deny it's a very good bit of experience to have and will most likely give an edge over the people who went the other route.
My Button thing was:
Right now who would you rather employ as a taxi driver, Mr Button or Mr X.
Mr Xs past is the same as Buttons when it comes to the PUBLIC road driving, held is license for the same amount of time, done the same amount of miles as him on public roads etc.
Mr Buttons past you know.
There is no shadow of a doubt that you would think that Button would have an extra edge due to his past.
It depends how you look at it. Jensen Button would probably get me there quicker, but I dare say I'd be fairly shaken on arrival!!
I very much agree, that there's very little substitute for experience, but I don't believe it has to be military. I've got nothing against ex military types (some of my best mates are ex military) and I think their handling skills, and decision making skills are second to none. Whether or not this translates into the airline environment is down to the individual! Some adapt better than others, IMO.
As was previously mentioned, the skill sets involved in flying low level, single pilot, dealing with a technical issue or enemy contact, are very different to those used in a multicrew environment, when a problem arises.
Hence my reluctance to make sweeping generalisations.
Now, as you fly 380's,I'm guessing you're in DXB and it's getting late, so enjoy a cold one
LimaDelta said:
But driving an F1 car is nothing like driving a taxi, just as flinging a Tornado across Spadeadam at 200ft AGL is nothing like sitting in the RH seat of an airliner six miles up.
I know this is kind of irrelevant, but I am a PPL student, and my friend from school flys Lynx for the RN. I was chatting to him about my air law exam and he just kind of dismissed it with 'oh, we don't really bother with that much'.
All flying is not the same.
Back in 2005 when I was training for my PPL I met a former RAF tornado and phantom Navigator and ironically he said the same thing about air law.I know this is kind of irrelevant, but I am a PPL student, and my friend from school flys Lynx for the RN. I was chatting to him about my air law exam and he just kind of dismissed it with 'oh, we don't really bother with that much'.
All flying is not the same.
speedyellowrs said:
Ok, I get your point now!
It depends how you look at it. Jensen Button would probably get me there quicker, but I dare say I'd be fairly shaken on arrival!!
I very much agree, that there's very little substitute for experience, but I don't believe it has to be military. I've got nothing against ex military types (some of my best mates are ex military) and I think their handling skills, and decision making skills are second to none. Whether or not this translates into the airline environment is down to the individual! Some adapt better than others, IMO.
As was previously mentioned, the skill sets involved in flying low level, single pilot, dealing with a technical issue or enemy contact, are very different to those used in a multicrew environment, when a problem arises.
Hence my reluctance to make sweeping generalisations.
Now, as you fly 380's,I'm guessing you're in DXB and it's getting late, so enjoy a cold one
I was thinking more along the lines of a sudden accident and Jenson dodging it, or anything else reflex, reaction related!It depends how you look at it. Jensen Button would probably get me there quicker, but I dare say I'd be fairly shaken on arrival!!
I very much agree, that there's very little substitute for experience, but I don't believe it has to be military. I've got nothing against ex military types (some of my best mates are ex military) and I think their handling skills, and decision making skills are second to none. Whether or not this translates into the airline environment is down to the individual! Some adapt better than others, IMO.
As was previously mentioned, the skill sets involved in flying low level, single pilot, dealing with a technical issue or enemy contact, are very different to those used in a multicrew environment, when a problem arises.
Hence my reluctance to make sweeping generalisations.
Now, as you fly 380's,I'm guessing you're in DXB and it's getting late, so enjoy a cold one
Double thinking about it now, would I rather have someone who has had 5 years raf and 2 years with an A330 or someone whos had 7 years on an a330.
Actually looking at it that way you would want the latter. The reason being that the latter has pure direct experience with the Aircraft in hand whereas the former has mix of relevant and irrelevant experience and then some training and little experience on the aircraft itself.
However then we have to look at, in the Air France situation, would the RAF pilot not have paniced and thought twice about pulling up....
Ahh I don't know now. I think I would rather have the Ex-milly but I'm less sure about it now!
I'm actually home for some time now !
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