HMS Queen Elizabeth
Discussion
Phud said:
choppers with dippy thingies are long gone
If I am correct Merlin is not too hot at hovering over the cable
Does that not strike anyone else as odd for a helicopter that was designed to be used (in one of its variants) as an ASW platform?If I am correct Merlin is not too hot at hovering over the cable
Or is dipping sonar just old-hat these days, and sonobuoys are now where it's at? I'm just an uninformed layman but doesn't the latter have the disadvantage of rendering the helicopter pretty much redundant once they have exhausted their supply....?
Phud said:
choppers with dippy thingies are long gone
If I am correct Merlin is not too hot at hovering over the cable
I've never read such a thing; given they can readily hover with only two of three engines running it seems unlikely.If I am correct Merlin is not too hot at hovering over the cable
Lurking Lawyer said:
Does that not strike anyone else as odd for a helicopter that was designed to be used (in one of its variants) as an ASW platform? Or is dipping sonar just old-hat these days, and sonobuoys are now where it's at? I'm just an uninformed layman but doesn't the latter have the disadvantage of rendering the helicopter pretty much redundant once they have exhausted their supply....?
wikipedia said:
Model 111
Royal Navy ASW/ASuW variant, designated Merlin HM1 by customer. Powered by RTM322 engines and fitted with Blue Kestrel radar, Thomson Marconi FLASH dipping sonar and Orange Reaper ESM. 44 built.[132]
Royal Navy ASW/ASuW variant, designated Merlin HM1 by customer. Powered by RTM322 engines and fitted with Blue Kestrel radar, Thomson Marconi FLASH dipping sonar and Orange Reaper ESM. 44 built.[132]
Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 1st February 20:42
AshVX220 said:
doogz said:
AshVX220 said:
hidetheelephants, I think your best chance would be to try and get one if they have a ship visit when she's in service, no doubt she'll do the occasional UK tour as she's doing work-ups etc.
TBH it's more the fact that it's in Barrow, that I don't want it. s
thole that the place is!
S7Paul said:
And that's precisely the problem BAE is experiencing in trying to recruit people for the Successor (Vanguard replacement) programme. Interesting jobs, money not too bad, but the location.....
I actually took a pay cut to get away from the place. Strangely none of the old hands can understand why anyone from outside wouldn't like the place 
Godalmighty83 said:
The bow is more about fuel efficiency and is one of the reasons that despite weighing about the same as all 3 invincible carriers combined each of the CVF's is more fuel efficient.
Plus, not having to carry any aeroplanes saves weight and therefore fuel too - double win 
MBBlat said:
S7Paul said:
And that's precisely the problem BAE is experiencing in trying to recruit people for the Successor (Vanguard replacement) programme. Interesting jobs, money not too bad, but the location.....
I actually took a pay cut to get away from the place. Strangely none of the old hands can understand why anyone from outside wouldn't like the place doogz said:
23's have, and 26's will have, a towed array, as they're frigates. QEC and T45 are not ASW ships. They'll always be escorted by at least one ASW and one sub, so sonar's not really necessary. Or at least, that's the theory.
Yes, I understand the role of ASW frigates as opposed to carriers, AAW destroyers and so on. What didn't make any sense to me was the suggestion that the ASW Merlin, whatever it happened to be embarked on, would be hobbled by not mounting a dipping sonar. If you're going to put an ASW asset on a ship, you would surely want to make it as effective as possible, even if that ship didn't happen to be principally tasked with ASW duties.We now appear to have established that it does in fact have a dipping sonar after all, so the point is moot!
linky
Iconic section of Queen Elizabeth Aircraft Carrier ready for delivery Forward Island is loaded out ahead of departure
Portsmouth, United Kingdom: The BAE Systems built Forward Island from which HMS Queen Elizabeth will be commanded has been declared ready for her first sea voyage.
The iconic Forward Island, known as Upper Block 07, is the hub of the ship as it contains the main bridge and approximately 100 vital mission systems compartments.
Paul Bowsher, QE Class project leader for BAE Systems in Portsmouth, said: “The Forward Island is a key part of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier and once again the exceptional standard of construction that we have achieved is true testament to the skills and talents of our team.
“It is a very proud moment to see her leave the hall, but we are already looking forward to her return home to Portsmouth as part of the largest warship ever constructed for the Royal Navy.”
It is the first block to depart with her final paint colours applied, all windows fitted and consoles installed, along with 43km of cables and 3,101 pipes. She also proudly displays the HMS Queen Elizabeth crest.
Weighing 680 tonnes, the Forward Island was today carried onto a barge which will depart next week for Rosyth where final assembly is underway. A transportation team will now spend the next four days ensuring the structure is fully secured to the barge.
The Forward Island recently passed a Ministry of Defence audit on all compartments and a full BAE Systems care and protection inspection to ensure the block is weather proof and able to undertake the sea journey. A 78 tonne lifting frame has also been attached to allow the Goliath Crane in Rosyth to lift it onto HMS Queen Elizabeth in March. Once the Long Range Radar has been installed on top of the Forward Island, the ship will stand at 56 metres, which is taller than the Niagara Falls.
The aircraft carriers HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales are being delivered by the Aircraft Carrier Alliance, a unique partnering relationship between BAE Systems, Thales UK, Babcock and the UK Ministry of Defence.
The ship’s main bridge has floor-to-ceiling windows, which are up to two metres tall to ensure a level of visibility far beyond previous aircraft carriers. HMS Queen Elizabeth is the first aircraft carrier to use an innovative design of two islands. The second ‘Aft Island’ operates as an airport control tower to co-ordinate aircraft movements, but both islands are designed with the ability to incorporate the other’s role in an emergency, thus increasing the survivability of the ship.
The 65,000 tonne Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers will be the centre piece of the UK’s military capability. They will be based in Portsmouth where significant investment is already underway to prepare for their arrival.
BAE pravda said:
Iconic section of Queen Elizabeth Aircraft Carrier ready for delivery Forward Island is loaded out ahead of departure
Portsmouth, United Kingdom: The BAE Systems built Forward Island from which HMS Queen Elizabeth will be commanded has been declared ready for her first sea voyage.
The iconic Forward Island, known as Upper Block 07, is the hub of the ship as it contains the main bridge and approximately 100 vital mission systems compartments.
Paul Bowsher, QE Class project leader for BAE Systems in Portsmouth, said: “The Forward Island is a key part of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier and once again the exceptional standard of construction that we have achieved is true testament to the skills and talents of our team.
“It is a very proud moment to see her leave the hall, but we are already looking forward to her return home to Portsmouth as part of the largest warship ever constructed for the Royal Navy.”
It is the first block to depart with her final paint colours applied, all windows fitted and consoles installed, along with 43km of cables and 3,101 pipes. She also proudly displays the HMS Queen Elizabeth crest.
Weighing 680 tonnes, the Forward Island was today carried onto a barge which will depart next week for Rosyth where final assembly is underway. A transportation team will now spend the next four days ensuring the structure is fully secured to the barge.
The Forward Island recently passed a Ministry of Defence audit on all compartments and a full BAE Systems care and protection inspection to ensure the block is weather proof and able to undertake the sea journey. A 78 tonne lifting frame has also been attached to allow the Goliath Crane in Rosyth to lift it onto HMS Queen Elizabeth in March. Once the Long Range Radar has been installed on top of the Forward Island, the ship will stand at 56 metres, which is taller than the Niagara Falls.
The aircraft carriers HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales are being delivered by the Aircraft Carrier Alliance, a unique partnering relationship between BAE Systems, Thales UK, Babcock and the UK Ministry of Defence.
The ship’s main bridge has floor-to-ceiling windows, which are up to two metres tall to ensure a level of visibility far beyond previous aircraft carriers. HMS Queen Elizabeth is the first aircraft carrier to use an innovative design of two islands. The second ‘Aft Island’ operates as an airport control tower to co-ordinate aircraft movements, but both islands are designed with the ability to incorporate the other’s role in an emergency, thus increasing the survivability of the ship.
The 65,000 tonne Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers will be the centre piece of the UK’s military capability. They will be based in Portsmouth where significant investment is already underway to prepare for their arrival.
Edited by hidetheelephants on Tuesday 5th February 14:51
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/02/06/defence_co...
Not sure if this is best placed here or in the News, Politics section but it relates to the contracts written up in the early 2000s for an "Adaptable" aircraft carrier that didn't turn out to be adaptable for traps and catapults. A lot of finger pointing going on at both the MOD and BAe Systems.
Not sure if this is best placed here or in the News, Politics section but it relates to the contracts written up in the early 2000s for an "Adaptable" aircraft carrier that didn't turn out to be adaptable for traps and catapults. A lot of finger pointing going on at both the MOD and BAe Systems.
doogz said:
The numbers quoted seem to be nonsense as well.
That's one of the points he's trying to make - the costs quoted by the Government and BAE Systems don't add up, especially when they were trying to blame General Atomic for most of the cost of conversion to CATOBAR ( despite GA offering to underwrite any cost overruns over their quoted price )doogz said:
Also worth pointing out that it's really fecking obvious that a considerable amount of rework is required to convert from one layout to the other. If you type "QEC Carrier" into google, and take a look at some pictures, the flight deck isn't even nearly the same shape for both designs.
It doesn't take long to think of a decent sized list of stuff that'd need changed to convert from one to the other. Ski ramp. Boilers, a fkload of pipework, some sort of HV power storage system if EMALS is to be used, the catapults themselves. The serious structural work required to support catapults, the same goes for arrestor wires. The blast deflectors are built into the flight deck. In the wrong place. Lots of changes would be required.
Yes, they requested that it would be possible to convert. And it is. But both designs weren't drawn up completely, at the time, we were building STOVL carriers. Why bother with a whole other design, that they're not planning on using at the time.
Err - did you actually read the article - most if not all of those points were covered in itIt doesn't take long to think of a decent sized list of stuff that'd need changed to convert from one to the other. Ski ramp. Boilers, a f
kload of pipework, some sort of HV power storage system if EMALS is to be used, the catapults themselves. The serious structural work required to support catapults, the same goes for arrestor wires. The blast deflectors are built into the flight deck. In the wrong place. Lots of changes would be required.Yes, they requested that it would be possible to convert. And it is. But both designs weren't drawn up completely, at the time, we were building STOVL carriers. Why bother with a whole other design, that they're not planning on using at the time.
doogz said:
I read it. They weren't. Where did they discuss re-engineering the flight deck? Or the purchase and installation cost of the boilers, which despite the articles claims were actually EMALS from the word go, would have been required to convert to CATOBAR as per the original specification.
If you have a point to make, please, do.
“The ability to add catapults and arrester gear to the ships had been specified from the earliest stages of their design.”If you have a point to make, please, do.
As far as deck design, and the differing requirements for STOVL and CATOBAR operation are concerned, it’s not exactly difficult to think that when the customer requests a design which can be adapted to either operational mode that you’d design in provision for both i.e. design for structural loads of the magnitude and locations required for both, build in provision for blast deflectors etc. in positions required for both modes.
As for fitting catapults, it doesn’t exactly require a genius to make provision for them by allowing space for either the steam generators and associated equipment needed for steam catapults, such space also being available for the kit needed to install EMALS should such a system be installed instead, as well as designing the ship’s structure for the loads they would generate
“……… the vessels have gas-turbine propulsion, not nuclear, in order to reduce costs. Gas propulsion cannot furnish the steam required by normal naval catapults. Cash-strapped Blighty also felt itself unable to cough up to develop new electric catapults, and so it was planned that at least to start with the ships would have no launch or recovery kit beyond a "ski-jump" ramp and would carry jumpjets and helicopters only.
But by 2010 the US had invented electric catapults to put on its next supercarrier, now nearing completion, and was happy to sell some to old Blighty. In perhaps the only good call in the entire 2010 defence review, the Prime Minister and the MoD team decided that they would purchase the US electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) and fit it to at least one of the British carriers.“
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