HMS Queen Elizabeth
Discussion
At the end of the day, our government and it's complete in-ability to make a decision, left it way too late to try and change the design. Yes, we can still convert one or both ships to CATOBAR, but that costs money, something the MoD completely forgot. You cannot order a bespoke piece of kit and then when it's nearing completion (as far as steel work goes) change the design, without incurring significant costs.
There comes a point when a decision has to be made and we'd gone past that point by almost 4 years (if not more) when they changed their minds.
Something the MoD (and therefore politicians) and media (and therefore the public) see to forget/ignore.
There comes a point when a decision has to be made and we'd gone past that point by almost 4 years (if not more) when they changed their minds.
Something the MoD (and therefore politicians) and media (and therefore the public) see to forget/ignore.
doogz said:
MartG said:
So not an 'adaptable' design at all then ?
Of course it is.Did you read the above?
It's adaptable, but the later you wait in the build to change your mind, the more expensive it's going to be.
Surely that's really, incredibly, obvious?
If they'd changed their mind before build had really got into full swing, there would have been a lot less work required to implement the changes.
So we may as well build new ships with EMALS and sell QE /POW to India - it would be cheaper than adapting the adaptable design we paid an extra 50% for in the first place.
Admittedly EMALS isn't the steam catapults that were originally talked about, but the amount of space that would have needed to be left available should have been enough. The US have committed their next carrier to EMALs and can't go back to steam which would suggest EMALs requires less space and/or is more flexible in positioning it's sub systems.
Am I right in thinking the problem is the word 'adaptable'?
ACA saw it as meaning 'leave lots of space to put in some crap if/when the politicians change their minds, that will cost them extra, but design it around what they say now.'
MoD saw it as 'we can change our minds as much as we like for free after all its easy to click a button and change the picture so the ship must work like that too!'
I presume that since the bill is being paid the contracts are written the ACA way....
ACA saw it as meaning 'leave lots of space to put in some crap if/when the politicians change their minds, that will cost them extra, but design it around what they say now.'
MoD saw it as 'we can change our minds as much as we like for free after all its easy to click a button and change the picture so the ship must work like that too!'
I presume that since the bill is being paid the contracts are written the ACA way....
mcdjl said:
Am I right in thinking the problem is the word 'adaptable'?
ACA saw it as meaning 'leave lots of space to put in some crap if/when the politicians change their minds, that will cost them extra, but design it around what they say now.'
MoD saw it as 'we can change our minds as much as we like for free after all its easy to click a button and change the picture so the ship must work like that too!'
I presume that since the bill is being paid the contracts are written the ACA way....
I'd guess you're right - unfortunately there seems to be a culture of "let's design something that'll cost the customer a fortune to deliver what they actually want" rather than "how can we use our intelligence to design something that exceeds the customer's expectations, showcasing our abilities so other customers will place orders with us"ACA saw it as meaning 'leave lots of space to put in some crap if/when the politicians change their minds, that will cost them extra, but design it around what they say now.'
MoD saw it as 'we can change our minds as much as we like for free after all its easy to click a button and change the picture so the ship must work like that too!'
I presume that since the bill is being paid the contracts are written the ACA way....
One thing to remember is that the "Adaptable" design wasn't industries idea - it came from the MoD who misunderstood Thales (BMT DSL's) original concept. The concept stage called for two designs, STOVL and cats-n-traps, for which the Thales/BMT team used a common hull. Someone at MoD went 
and realised that this could be used to avoid making a decision and the adaptable design was born.
Also its adaptable in the same way that a car is adaptable between petrol & diesel - try changing yours and it will probably be cheaper to buy a new one.
and realised that this could be used to avoid making a decision and the adaptable design was born.Also its adaptable in the same way that a car is adaptable between petrol & diesel - try changing yours and it will probably be cheaper to buy a new one.
MartG said:
mcdjl said:
Am I right in thinking the problem is the word 'adaptable'?
ACA saw it as meaning 'leave lots of space to put in some crap if/when the politicians change their minds, that will cost them extra, but design it around what they say now.'
MoD saw it as 'we can change our minds as much as we like for free after all its easy to click a button and change the picture so the ship must work like that too!'
I presume that since the bill is being paid the contracts are written the ACA way....
I'd guess you're right - unfortunately there seems to be a culture of "let's design something that'll cost the customer a fortune to deliver what they actually want" rather than "how can we use our intelligence to design something that exceeds the customer's expectations, showcasing our abilities so other customers will place orders with us"ACA saw it as meaning 'leave lots of space to put in some crap if/when the politicians change their minds, that will cost them extra, but design it around what they say now.'
MoD saw it as 'we can change our minds as much as we like for free after all its easy to click a button and change the picture so the ship must work like that too!'
I presume that since the bill is being paid the contracts are written the ACA way....
Another question for PH's resident ship designers / builders:
Modern large ships are built in a modular fashion, but how "complete" is each module. I.e. has every last wire, pipe and grommet been designed and installed in each module. (persumably now possible thanks to CAD/CAE) Or is there still a large degree of "fitting out" when all the modules have been welded together into a chunk??
Modern large ships are built in a modular fashion, but how "complete" is each module. I.e. has every last wire, pipe and grommet been designed and installed in each module. (persumably now possible thanks to CAD/CAE) Or is there still a large degree of "fitting out" when all the modules have been welded together into a chunk??
doogz said:
I'll watch it in a bit.
Does he mention anything about the crane being f
ked due to a st casting, which tbh is to be expected when you buy something like this from China?
Just noticed this comment on browsing back through the thread, do you have any more info or source on this? Does he mention anything about the crane being f
ked due to a st casting, which tbh is to be expected when you buy something like this from China?doogz said:
Max_Torque said:
Another question for PH's resident ship designers / builders:
Modern large ships are built in a modular fashion, but how "complete" is each module. I.e. has every last wire, pipe and grommet been designed and installed in each module. (persumably now possible thanks to CAD/CAE) Or is there still a large degree of "fitting out" when all the modules have been welded together into a chunk??
All of the big items go in at the build stage. Obvious, if you think about it. If it's too big to fit through the door, it has to go in before that compartment is finished. These are called "lock-out" items.Modern large ships are built in a modular fashion, but how "complete" is each module. I.e. has every last wire, pipe and grommet been designed and installed in each module. (persumably now possible thanks to CAD/CAE) Or is there still a large degree of "fitting out" when all the modules have been welded together into a chunk??
Bakery - just add bakers! by QEClassCarriers, on Flickr
HMS Queen Elizabeth passageway by QEClassCarriers, on Flickr
Inside a typical cabin unit by QEClassCarriers, on Flickr
The following two are actually from Prince of Wales LB03. Taken last October. Steel Work only began in summer 2011. Will be even more complete by the time it is shipped to Rosyth I imagine.
Prince of Wales interior LB03 ii by QEClassCarriers, on Flickr
Prince of Wales interior LB03 by QEClassCarriers, on Flickr
doogz said:
All of the big items go in at the build stage. Obvious, if you think about it. If it's too big to fit through the door, it has to go in before that compartment is finished. These are called "lock-out" items.
Actually, I'll give you a quick run down of how these are put together, otherwise words like unit/block/module won't really make sense.
The steelwork is built in units. A typical unit is like one storey of a house, it consists of a deck (floor), and the bulkheads (walls) underneath it. So these units are built upside down. Makes the welding a lot easier. A typical unit will maybe be 12m*12m*3m, and weigh anywhere between 10 and 120 tonnes.
These units are then turned right way up, and erected to the block. A block, is one of the large bits you'll see on a barge being shipped around. These weigh anything from 1,000Te to 15,000Te.
So, you're building your block, you stick on a unit. Then that standing deck has a big piece of equipment on it, a diesel generator, propulsion motor, switchboard, so that gets lifted on, then the next unit goes on top. All the units will be 99% complete in terms of steelwork, maybe 50% complete wrt piping, and minimal electrical/outfit type stuff.
All the rest of the stuff has to be fitted afterwards, but the majority of it is done at 'block stage' so when the completed block is floated off into the dock at Rosyth, it's mostly complete.
Modularisation is something slightly different, that they introduced on the T45's, and is being used more extensively on QEC, and again further on T26, where standard compartments, like accommodation compartments, shower rooms, that sort of thing, are produced externally, and the space in the ship is left empty, until these modules are delivered. At which point, the compartment will have some fixing points, a power supply, water main, whatever else is required for the module being fitted. The module is basically wheeled on on pallet trucks/skateboards, or in particularly awkward cases, fleeted in, with slings/chain blocks/etc from the deckhead, into the compartment it is to be located in, where it's bolted down, plugged into the mains, and it's ready to be used. Moving these big modules is a pain in the ass, but sending in teams of plumbers carrying toilets and beds up ladders is more time consuming and expensive.
Thanks for that - it's really informative.Actually, I'll give you a quick run down of how these are put together, otherwise words like unit/block/module won't really make sense.
The steelwork is built in units. A typical unit is like one storey of a house, it consists of a deck (floor), and the bulkheads (walls) underneath it. So these units are built upside down. Makes the welding a lot easier. A typical unit will maybe be 12m*12m*3m, and weigh anywhere between 10 and 120 tonnes.
These units are then turned right way up, and erected to the block. A block, is one of the large bits you'll see on a barge being shipped around. These weigh anything from 1,000Te to 15,000Te.
So, you're building your block, you stick on a unit. Then that standing deck has a big piece of equipment on it, a diesel generator, propulsion motor, switchboard, so that gets lifted on, then the next unit goes on top. All the units will be 99% complete in terms of steelwork, maybe 50% complete wrt piping, and minimal electrical/outfit type stuff.
All the rest of the stuff has to be fitted afterwards, but the majority of it is done at 'block stage' so when the completed block is floated off into the dock at Rosyth, it's mostly complete.
Modularisation is something slightly different, that they introduced on the T45's, and is being used more extensively on QEC, and again further on T26, where standard compartments, like accommodation compartments, shower rooms, that sort of thing, are produced externally, and the space in the ship is left empty, until these modules are delivered. At which point, the compartment will have some fixing points, a power supply, water main, whatever else is required for the module being fitted. The module is basically wheeled on on pallet trucks/skateboards, or in particularly awkward cases, fleeted in, with slings/chain blocks/etc from the deckhead, into the compartment it is to be located in, where it's bolted down, plugged into the mains, and it's ready to be used. Moving these big modules is a pain in the ass, but sending in teams of plumbers carrying toilets and beds up ladders is more time consuming and expensive.
One thing strikes me though - your comment about diesel generators and propulsion units and the like - if you ever need to replace them, how do you do it? Cut a big hole in the deck?
Riff Raff said:
Thanks for that - it's really informative.
One thing strikes me though - your comment about diesel generators and propulsion units and the like - if you ever need to replace them, how do you do it? Cut a big hole in the deck?
Its more normal to cut a big hole in the side, preferably when in a dry dock One thing strikes me though - your comment about diesel generators and propulsion units and the like - if you ever need to replace them, how do you do it? Cut a big hole in the deck?
Smaller items, like gas turbine cores, pistons, crankshafts etc that are considered wear items are provided with a route out of the ship, either through a bolted patch or the cheapskates way of a bit of structure designed to be cut.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/84561...
One bow to go, add a ski jump and its done... ish.
One bow to go, add a ski jump and its done... ish.
Finished, but I always imagined it would be bigger than this 
www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/8450081129/
www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/8450081129/
MartG said:
hidetheelephants said:
I think 'the bloody MoD are asking for the moon on a stick yesterday again; how do we achieve this without either a) a time machine or b) a budget?' is nearer the mark.
the strip needs a forth box with Dilbert giving PHB a bill covered in zeros for 'services rendered' and PHB vomiting up his brain and spinal cortex in response.hidetheelephants said:
BAE pravda said:
The 65,000 tonne Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers will be the centre piece of the UK’s military capability. They will be based in Portsmouth where significant investment is already underway to prepare for their arrival.
And despite doing 10 hour days all this week, somehow we managed to miss that bloody bridge section sailing past 100 yards away? I don't Adam and Eve it
Saw the Amaryllis sliding in and out yesterday (Thursday) mind: some people have too much money...
hidetheelephants said:
the strip needs a forth box with Dilbert giving PHB a bill covered in zeros for 'services rendered' and PHB vomiting up his brain and spinal cortex in response.The translator quit because she wasn't being paid enough for the responsibility she had to carry.
Does it come with airbags?
For those intersted here's a video of the Fwd Island being lifted into place today (14/3/13) on HMS Queen Elizabeth, taking her from a being a completely flat hull to looking more like a ship and starting to gain that wonderful twin island silhouette.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vP6Nfyfnz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vP6Nfyfnz4
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff