Crash at Shoreham Air show

[Oldred_V8S]

RoverP6B said:

The point is that certain people are very fond of claiming that all those killed at Shoreham were innocent non-participants. That was not the case.

The JP display has not been confirmed as having been flown by Andy Hill, as far as I am aware. It's just media speculation.

Both the Telegraph and the BBC have issued a statement saying he was the pilot at Southport; the Police have also said they have spoken to him in connection with both Southport and Shoreham.

[Richie Slow]

RoverP6B said:

The point is that certain people are very fond of claiming that all those killed at Shoreham were innocent non-participants. That was not the case.

The JP display has not been confirmed as having been flown by Andy Hill, as far as I am aware. It's just media speculation.

Groundhog day?

Victims are victims. It really makes no difference whether they were watching a show or just driving by. They are dead now. Suggestions that some of them might have somehow 'consented' to accept a risk [ and therefore the harm attached with that risk ] are pointless, irrelevant, and not legally possible.

Doesn't have any bearing on the cause(s) does it?

[dr_gn]

Richie Slow said:

Boatbuoy said:

.........

I found a video of the Southport incident, where the JP ended up very low and heading towards the crowd, before pulling up and (allegedly) finishing the display prematurely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwhLSHpeiE8

The only two videos that I've seen of Andy Hill's flying lead me towards an obvious conclusion about his competence.

Some pilots appear to be revered, partly for taking some pretty significant risks with the lives of others...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnc78LW7V1U

It's obviously a very fine line between being a hero and a villain. I'm amazed the above examples (both the same pilot I think) appeared to gain no interest from the authorities.

[TooMany2cvs]

RoverP6B said:

The point is that certain people are very fond of claiming that all those killed at Shoreham were innocent non-participants. That was not the case.

Nor is it even vaguely relevant to anything.

Although saying "none were spectating" is close to being as accurate as your claim of "majority were spectating" - "all" is four people out, "majority" is three people out.

[Richie Slow]

dr_gn said:

Some pilots appear to be revered, partly for taking some pretty significant risks with the lives of others...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnc78LW7V1U

It's obviously a very fine line between being a hero and a villain. I'm amazed the above examples (both the same pilot I think) appeared to gain no interest from the authorities.

Both of those videos show a high degree of precision. Being on the edge of control, or beyond it, is another matter entirely.

But I do know what you mean. Bob Hoover might be a better example - he bent a few aeroplanes despite his 'skills'.

[aeropilot]

dr_gn said:

Some pilots appear to be revered, partly for taking some pretty significant risks with the lives of others...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnc78LW7V1U

It's obviously a very fine line between being a hero and a villain. I'm amazed the above examples (both the same pilot I think) appeared to gain no interest from the authorities.

I think Ray might have got a ticking off about the Goodwood flyby, being a public event, which is why it never happened again.

The 1st one was a staged sequence for filming, so not sure that would have merited a sanction? After all, that's not too different to Ray doing this for filming during the TV series Piece of Cake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVeunEaHiYo

[dr_gn]

aeropilot said:

dr_gn said:

Some pilots appear to be revered, partly for taking some pretty significant risks with the lives of others...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnc78LW7V1U

It's obviously a very fine line between being a hero and a villain. I'm amazed the above examples (both the same pilot I think) appeared to gain no interest from the authorities.

I think Ray might have got a ticking off about the Goodwood flyby, being a public event, which is why it never happened again.

The 1st one was a staged sequence for filming, so not sure that would have merited a sanction? After all, that's not too different to Ray doing this for filming during the TV series Piece of Cake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVeunEaHiYo

I'd see it as significantly different: He's not deliberately flying within about 1' of someone's head.

[dr_gn]

Richie Slow said:

dr_gn said:

Some pilots appear to be revered, partly for taking some pretty significant risks with the lives of others...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnc78LW7V1U

It's obviously a very fine line between being a hero and a villain. I'm amazed the above examples (both the same pilot I think) appeared to gain no interest from the authorities.

Both of those videos show a high degree of precision. Being on the edge of control, or beyond it, is another matter entirely.

But I do know what you mean. Bob Hoover might be a better example - he bent a few aeroplanes despite his 'skills'.

Precision counts for nothing if there's a mechanical failure or some other factor beyond the control of the pilot; suddenly you've killed multiple people for the sake of your own ego. I'm sure if there had been a risk assessment for the Goodwood stunt it wouldn't have got past the laughter stage. If it went ahead anyway, an instant and permanent flying ban wouldn't have seemed too drastic.

Edited by dr_gn on Wednesday 3rd February 19:20

[aeropilot]

dr_gn said:

He's not deliberately flying within about 1' of someone's head.

For millionth time, don't exaggerate.....

[dr_gn]

aeropilot said:

dr_gn said:

He's not deliberately flying within about 1' of someone's head.

For millionth time, don't exaggerate.....

The point is, there was pretty much no margin for error - pilot or otherwise.

Misjudge it and several people are dead, so why do it? Sure, it looks spectacular, but that's not the point.

[aeropilot]

dr_gn said:

aeropilot said:

dr_gn said:

He's not deliberately flying within about 1' of someone's head.

For millionth time, don't exaggerate.....

The point is, there was pretty much no margin for error - pilot or otherwise.

Misjudge it and several people are dead, so why do it? Sure, it looks spectacular, but that's not the point.

Ray was just one of those exceptions.....probably one of only a few that have challenged the 'the are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots' mantra.
From talking to a few that flew with him, he was very safety conscious....and had an extremely high situation awareness ability. His legacy still to this day is the reputation of the Red Arrows as we know them. We probably won't see his like again on the display circuit.

[fatboy69]

I have watched the SouthPort Jet Provost video a couple of times & I can't see what was wrong with the display - at least to the untrained eye all appeared to be pretty much ok.

Not wishing to get involved in some of the crap & irritating comments on this thread I would just like someone with a little bit of experience to explain what was wrong with the display.

[ecsrobin]

fatboy69 said:

I have watched the SouthPort Jet Provost video a couple of times & I can't see what was wrong with the display - at least to the untrained eye all appeared to be pretty much ok.

Not wishing to get involved in some of the crap & irritating comments on this thread I would just like someone with a little bit of experience to explain what was wrong with the display.

At an airshow you'll have a display line. I can't remember off the top of my head the distances but basically helicopters are the closest to the crowd. Prop aircraft are next then furthest away is jet aircraft. He went past that line apparently so within the buffer zone between the display line and the crowd line.

[fatboy69]

I know about the the crowd line - wasn't clear from the video that he crossed it so that explains what was, apparently, wrong at SouthPort.

Thank you.

[dr_gn]

Looked to me more like a totally botched roll, after coming out of the loop.

[Bonefish Blues]

To my untrained eye that was my impression too. It all looked rather scruffy to coin a phrase.

[WilliamWoollard]

This video gives a little more perspective on how close to the crowd it was. Watch from 9.30 Scary bit at 9.55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yQmq8i0HG4&fe...

[karona]

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/statutory%20ch...

ouch!

[Dr Jekyll]

dr_gn said:

aeropilot said:

dr_gn said:

Some pilots appear to be revered, partly for taking some pretty significant risks with the lives of others...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECmbme_UKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnc78LW7V1U

It's obviously a very fine line between being a hero and a villain. I'm amazed the above examples (both the same pilot I think) appeared to gain no interest from the authorities.

I think Ray might have got a ticking off about the Goodwood flyby, being a public event, which is why it never happened again.

The 1st one was a staged sequence for filming, so not sure that would have merited a sanction? After all, that's not too different to Ray doing this for filming during the TV series Piece of Cake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVeunEaHiYo

I'd see it as significantly different: He's not deliberately flying within about 1' of someone's head.

The fundamental difference is that they are low passes, not low manoeuvres. So the chance of a small error leading to the aircraft being significantly lower than intended is much reduced.

In the early days of B17 Sally B on the UK display circuit one particular pilot flew ridiculously low passes, so low only the front row of the crowd could see them. But got away with it. Then a few years later he tried to roll a A26 at a much greater height, lost it and crashed.

[RoverP6B]

So, the Torygraph and Beeb have both stated the Southport pilot was Andy Hill? So fking what, they don't know - no official identification has been made. Furthermore, I can't see anything wrong with the Southport display. He flew towards the crowdline then turned 90 degrees before he reached it.

Ray Hanna was a genius. Nobody could fly like him. The late, great Raymond Baxter, who knew his way round a Spitfire himself, described Hanna as "The greatest exponent of the Spitfire".