Operation Jericho:

[Eric Mc]

jmorgan said:

Yeah but understand keeping Overlord secret, that goes without saying. I am pretty sure they could have managed it from high up and still said it was a mistake and left just a scar on the landscape. I know they wanted to keep civilian casualties in occupied Europe down where possible (OK, can of worms I know).

The fact that they used a relatively small numbers of Mosquitoes rather than 200 to 300 Lancasters or Halifaxes makes me think that they WERE trying to keep the extraneous casualties down.

[jmorgan]

Yeah, that fits but still the uncertainty of releasing the bod that knows or silencing him, or he is not released and not silenced, that theory has a bit of uncertainty over it. Just releasing prisoners still flies in my mind.

That is the bit I am stuck on.

No doubt I have it wrong somewhere.

[Simpo Two]

It may have been that it was a deal between the Resitance and Churchill - ie - 'show us support by helping release our prisoners and we'll blow up some more railway lines'. We'll never know what private deals were struck in smoke-filled rooms.

[jmorgan]

No problem there, it was the interview with that fella in the program. Makes me think that it was what the general view is rather than something else that is yet to be released.

But then I have been wrong before.

[Simpo Two]

From what I recall of the programme it was one person's opinion which was used to strike a contrary chord, no doubt for a bit of 'cutting edge (non)-revelation', because the idea that some bombers could simply take off and knock some walls down wasn't good enough for him (a bit like the Apollo conspiracies IMHO).

[mrmaggit]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

mrmaggit said:

I always suspected that there was an ulterior motive on the raid, given that no other RAF planes were in the sky that day. There were heavy blizzards over East Anglia (they flew from Swanton Morley) and the weather only cleared up over the Channel.

No.

They flew from Hunsdon in Hertfordshire.

I stand corrected, sorry.

[Zaxxon]

Simpo Two said:

Zaxxon said:

So the intentional killing of French Prisoners is kept secret for 100 years. But allowing Coventry to be bombed even though it is known to be the enemies target to keep Enigma safe is admitted soon after the war?

You need to read up RV Jones' account of the 'battle of the beams' and pay less attention to TV programmes written by 20-somethings with media degrees. Do you really think they'd let a city be bombed?

Actually I'm pretty sure that this fact, I gleaned from a book called 'A Man Called Intrepid' It's a book about William Stevenson, who was a confidant of Churchill's and go between with FDR. An excellent book IMO, but it's been a while so cannot remember all of it. It may not have been Enigma that was in jepardy but some secret intelligence was at risk.

Edited by Zaxxon on Monday 24th October 19:26

[dr_gn]

Simpo Two said:

Zaxxon said:

So the intentional killing of French Prisoners is kept secret for 100 years. But allowing Coventry to be bombed even though it is known to be the enemies target to keep Enigma safe is admitted soon after the war?

As for the prisoners, if one of them knew the D-Day plans then yes, you kill them all rather than let the plans for the liberation of Europe fall into Nazi hands. Isn't that obvious?

Must admit I didn't watch all of it, but if they'd wanted to kill all the prisoners, why didn't they just level the place? I thought the whole point was it was supposed to be a precision raid, targeting the outer wall, barracks and part of the main prison gates so that people could escape? Were they saying that's more or less what they achieved, but it was a mistake (ie not enough people killed)?

[Simpo Two]

Zaxxon said:

Actually I'm pretty sure that this fact

You're quite sure that HM Govt was able to stop the bombing of Coventry but thought 'Nah, bks, let 'em fry'?

dr_gn said:

if they'd wanted to kill all the prisoners, why didn't they just level the place? I thought the whole point was it was supposed to be a precision raid, targeting the outer wall, barracks and part of the main prison gates so that people could escape? Were they saying that's more or less what they achieved, but it was a mistake (ie not enough people killed)?

It's a fair point - eliminate all risk. But it wouldn't have gone down too well with the Resistance, so perhaps the 'British fair play sporting chance' concept came into play.

But your last sentence is confusing. Either you *attempt* a precision raid and accept it will not be perfect (Jerry has not seen the script and is unaware of his part) or you try to obliterate the target.

I recall someone likening war to a game of chess. You plan every move perfectly, but the moment you start playing it all goes pear-shaped...

[tdm34ds]

We can hypothesize about the real reasons for this raid all we like, we'll only get the full truth in 33 years time

But one thing stands out for me more than anything else, Pickard should've got a VC not just for the Amiens Raid
but for the fact he flew over 100 missions, some of them real cloak and dagger ones using Lysanders ferrying
resistance bods about.

A true hero

Lest We Forget.....

[Simpo Two]

tdm34ds said:

But one thing stands out for me more than anything else, Pickard should've got a VC not just for the Amiens Raid but for the fact he flew over 100 missions, some of them real cloak and dagger ones using Lysanders ferrying resistance bods about.

A true hero

Lest We Forget.....

Spot on. So many epic missions and then thrown away by an ill-judged return to target.

To learn more about SOE missions I can recommend 'Moon Squadron': www.amazon.co.uk/Moon-Squadron-Jerald-Tickell/dp/B... and also 'Peter Five': www.amazon.co.uk/Peter-Five-Freddie-Clark/dp/18728...

[jmorgan]

Scuse me, books added to wish list, ta.

[dr_gn]

Simpo Two said:

dr_gn said:

if they'd wanted to kill all the prisoners, why didn't they just level the place? I thought the whole point was it was supposed to be a precision raid, targeting the outer wall, barracks and part of the main prison gates so that people could escape? Were they saying that's more or less what they achieved, but it was a mistake (ie not enough people killed)?

But your last sentence is confusing. Either you *attempt* a precision raid and accept it will not be perfect (Jerry has not seen the script and is unaware of his part) or you try to obliterate the target.

...but there could be two definitions of 'precision' in this case:

One would be you destroy individual parts of the building.

The other is that you obliterate the prison completely without destroying any surrounding infrastructure (assuming there was any).

My point was you could achieve the former and it would look like an incredible bit of planned bombing, even though the intention was the latter. Obviously the reverse is not true.

That's not very clearly explained is it? Oh well.

[Simpo Two]

dr_gn said:

...but there could be two definitions of 'precision' in this case

Ah yes, I see.

But IIRC there was a 'spare' squadron nearby that was sent home as the objective had been achieved - ie holes in walls. If they wanted to destroy the prison they'd have thought 'Bugger, only hit the walls, let's call in the spare squadron to finish it off'.

[Zaxxon]

Simpo Two said:

Zaxxon said:

Actually I'm pretty sure that this fact

You're quite sure that HM Govt was able to stop the bombing of Coventry but thought 'Nah, bks, let 'em fry'?

dr_gn said:

if they'd wanted to kill all the prisoners, why didn't they just level the place? I thought the whole point was it was supposed to be a precision raid, targeting the outer wall, barracks and part of the main prison gates so that people could escape? Were they saying that's more or less what they achieved, but it was a mistake (ie not enough people killed)?

It's a fair point - eliminate all risk. But it wouldn't have gone down too well with the Resistance, so perhaps the 'British fair play sporting chance' concept came into play.

But your last sentence is confusing. Either you *attempt* a precision raid and accept it will not be perfect (Jerry has not seen the script and is unaware of his part) or you try to obliterate the target.

I recall someone likening war to a game of chess. You plan every move perfectly, but the moment you start playing it all goes pear-shaped...

As I stated, I read it in the book, A man called Intrepid, great book, not sure who wrote it. Whether it is true or not, it is a believable as sinking the French fleet, bombing French prisoners and many other things that happened in all wars.

[IanUAE]

A quick read of Wiki indicates that the film 633 Squadron was based on Operation Jericho, or maybe I read it wrong.

[dr_gn]

Zaxxon said:

Simpo Two said:

Zaxxon said:

Actually I'm pretty sure that this fact

You're quite sure that HM Govt was able to stop the bombing of Coventry but thought 'Nah, bks, let 'em fry'?

dr_gn said:

if they'd wanted to kill all the prisoners, why didn't they just level the place? I thought the whole point was it was supposed to be a precision raid, targeting the outer wall, barracks and part of the main prison gates so that people could escape? Were they saying that's more or less what they achieved, but it was a mistake (ie not enough people killed)?

It's a fair point - eliminate all risk. But it wouldn't have gone down too well with the Resistance, so perhaps the 'British fair play sporting chance' concept came into play.

But your last sentence is confusing. Either you *attempt* a precision raid and accept it will not be perfect (Jerry has not seen the script and is unaware of his part) or you try to obliterate the target.

I recall someone likening war to a game of chess. You plan every move perfectly, but the moment you start playing it all goes pear-shaped...

As I stated, I read it in the book, A man called Intrepid, great book, not sure who wrote it. Whether it is true or not, it is a believable as sinking the French fleet, bombing French prisoners and many other things that happened in all wars.

Look up "SS Cap Arcona".

I happened to be in the Lubeck Bay area of the Baltic coast earlier this year, and did a bit of research into the area...I wished I hadn't.

[Eric Mc]

IanUAE said:

A quick read of Wiki indicates that the film 633 Squadron was based on Operation Jericho, or maybe I read it wrong.

Partly. During WW2, a number of special missions were conducted by Mosquitoes and all of them inspired the book and later film.

[Simpo Two]

Eric Mc said:

IanUAE said:

A quick read of Wiki indicates that the film 633 Squadron was based on Operation Jericho, or maybe I read it wrong.

Partly. During WW2, a number of special missions were conducted by Mosquitoes and all of them inspired the book and later film.

I always thought of '633 Squadron' as a cross between 'The Dambusters' and 'The Heroes of Telemark'.

[Eric Mc]

Simpo Two said:

Eric Mc said:

IanUAE said:

A quick read of Wiki indicates that the film 633 Squadron was based on Operation Jericho, or maybe I read it wrong.

Partly. During WW2, a number of special missions were conducted by Mosquitoes and all of them inspired the book and later film.

I always thought of '633 Squadron' as a cross between 'The Dambusters' and 'The Heroes of Telemark'.

It's a work of fiction so you can probably claim that any of thr RAf special operations type missions could be said to have inspired it. The nature of the fictional mission to me is more akin to the Amiens Raid or the bombing operations against the Gestapo HQs in Copenhagen and Oslo as well as the planned Highball attacks on German shipping (which never happened).