How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?

[legzr1]

frankenstein12 said:

Frankly if this is about crushing the unions I am absolutely fine with that its way beyond time for it. Mostly I would like to see the unions behind the LU broken into little pieces for their constant and consistent blackmail.

As I have said before I work with government so I know the sort of deceit and outright dishonest behaviour they are involved in.

No job is for life. There is no justification for claiming it is about safety when the reality is that the strike is about long term job security.

Be honest about it you would get more respect.

It is perfectly justifiable to demand systems in place to make doo trains properly safe such as decent video systems. It is also perfectly reasonable to demand a certain percentage of guards on trains.

Southern and the government both know that there is nothing they could propose that would stop the strikes other than to concede fully to the union and workers demands and agree to never introduce DOO trains which is not an option,

As has been repeatedly proven as soon as you cave to one demand another is made and then another etc. Look at the underground to see the effect of capitulating to strikes. Numerous strikes every year and each time it comes down to more money for staff.

Laughable

[Chrisgr31]

ukwill said:

The ORRs report on Southern Trains is available online:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/2367...

Interestingly, they observed that
There are clear safety benefits compared to the current method of operation using a Conductor because the driver will be able to monitor the Platform Train Interface for a short distance as the train leaves the station. The Conductor is unable to do this unless dispatching the train from a driving cab.

They went on conclude that in relation to DOO, both the Railway Group Standards (RGS) and Railway Industry Standards (RIS) were being adhered to.


Frankly, the Union's don't have a leg to stand on in terms of health and safety. But then, as ever, this strike was never about health and safety. As the Chairman of the RMT made perfectly clear, a month ago.

Its odd really as they have previously said the screens should be off when the driver applies power to ensure the driver is looking in the direction the train is actually going.

And they didnt actually conclude standards were being adhered to and required Southern to make a number of improvements. They were of course lucky that on the day they did the test the cameras were working fine (I am sure Southern wouldnt have sent out the best unit they have) and there were no weather related issues etc.

[frankenstein12]

tight5 said:

Well, lets hope you lose yours.

I have no doubt at some point I will that's life. My work within government has shown me the government cannot and should not ever be trusted however the fact is this strike and most of the rails strikes are about pay, perks and job security.

Unfortunately the unions and the workers on strike think the public are that stupid they can't see that.

I also find it rather baffling when I see or hear Southern strikers saying the customer support their strikes when all I see online is vitriol and hatred aimed at both the southern rail drivers and guards as well as to a degree the company.

Personally I would hate to work for southern either now or if the strikes ever end as customers will not treat the staff with any form of courtesy or respect they used to.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Tuesday 10th January 13:03

[ukwill]

Chrisgr31 said:

Its odd really as they have previously said the screens should be off when the driver applies power to ensure the driver is looking in the direction the train is actually going.

And they didnt actually conclude standards were being adhered to and required Southern to make a number of improvements. They were of course lucky that on the day they did the test the cameras were working fine (I am sure Southern wouldnt have sent out the best unit they have) and there were no weather related issues etc.

The report states it looked at (amongst other things) the Results of the trials where the in-cab monitors stay on until the train reaches 4 mph

They very much did conclude standards were being adhered to. Conclusions, point 15:
Industry standards, Railway Group Standards (RGS), Railway Industry Standards(RIS), are the minimum requirements that have to be met. ORR is satisfied that these requirements and those from good practice guides, in relation to DOO operation, are being adhered to.

Finally, the report wasn't based on a single test carried out on a single day.

The report is only 5 pages long. It doesn't take long to read.

[craigjm]

It is clearly wrong that a DOO train should be able to move with a door clearly not closed fully. It doesn't matter what is trapped in it. Surely there should be a safety system that flashes up "doors not closed" and no matter how much the driver attempt to leave it keeps the train static. Without some kind of system like that on the train then we might as well go back to freely opening doors and people running along the platform to jump onto a moving train!

The fact that the driver has personally ended up in court is horrific and the fact that they have passed it to the crown court suggests that a sentence of more than 6 months is imminent. Poor guy.

[legzr1]

ukwill said:

The report states it looked at (amongst other things) the Results of the trials where the in-cab monitors stay on until the train reaches 4 mph

They very much did conclude standards were being adhered to. Conclusions, point 15:
Industry standards, Railway Group Standards (RGS), Railway Industry Standards(RIS), are the minimum requirements that have to be met. ORR is satisfied that these requirements and those from good practice guides, in relation to DOO operation, are being adhered to.

Finally, the report wasn't based on a single test carried out on a single day.

The report is only 5 pages long. It doesn't take long to read.

Just what you need - a driver controlling a train with 1000 passengers looking at CCTV rather then the route.

Nice to see an industry with a reputation as being one of the safest in the world is happy to accept minimum requirements.
Especially when the current system is safer.

Have you read the thread yet?

A little longer than 5 pages so I understand if you haven't bothered.

[legzr1]

frankenstein12 said:

I have no doubt at some point I will that's life. My work within government has shown me the government cannot and should not ever be trusted however the fact is this strike and most of the rails strikes are about pay, perks and job security.

Unfortunately the unions and the workers on strike think the public are that stupid they can't see that.

I also find it rather baffling when I see or hear Southern strikers saying the customer support their strikes when all I see online is vitriol and hatred aimed at both the southern rail drivers and guards as well as to a degree the company.

Personally I would hate to work for southern either now or if the strikes ever end as customers will not treat the staff with any form of courtesy or respect they used to.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Tuesday 10th January 13:03

You have issues.

You hate unions, hate Governement, hate Southern, hate your job?

Well done on a far reaching rant without a point confusing LU station staff with Southern drivers and guards.


I blame cheese sandwiches personally...

[Stedman]

craigjm said:

It is clearly wrong that a DOO train should be able to move with a door clearly not closed fully. It doesn't matter what is trapped in it. Surely there should be a safety system that flashes up "doors not closed" and no matter how much the driver attempt to leave it keeps the train static. Without some kind of system like that on the train then we might as well go back to freely opening doors and people running along the platform to jump onto a moving train!

The fact that the driver has personally ended up in court is horrific and the fact that they have passed it to the crown court suggests that a sentence of more than 6 months is imminent. Poor guy.

Good point. There is a system in place, it's called 'interlock'. Unfortunately you can 'gain interlock' (as it's known) with a hand, crutch etc trapped in the rubber seal of the doors. The whole thing is now a cluster fk

[nc107]

craigjm said:

It is clearly wrong that a DOO train should be able to move with a door clearly not closed fully. It doesn't matter what is trapped in it. Surely there should be a safety system that flashes up "doors not closed" and no matter how much the driver attempt to leave it keeps the train static. Without some kind of system like that on the train then we might as well go back to freely opening doors and people running along the platform to jump onto a moving train!

The fact that the driver has personally ended up in court is horrific and the fact that they have passed it to the crown court suggests that a sentence of more than 6 months is imminent. Poor guy.

There is a safety system. For a train to take traction the round train safety loop interlock must be complete. Each door is a "hole" in the safety loop and it is not complete until all "holes" are filled (i.e. all doors are closed). They are closed via two micro switches at each door position that "make" and fill the "hole" when the door is closed. Of course, the definition of "closed" is the important bit.

All passenger door system must be capable of detecting an obstacle of a certain size. The design regulation can be found in GMRT2473 Issue 2 (google will find it if you're interested) page 7. Essentially the system must detect an object down to 10mm wide and 50mm tall in the middle of the door gap. If the doors are not maintained or set correctly the obstacle detect may not operate as intended.

I don't have any knowledge of this particular accident although the RAIB investigation ( https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-122016-p... ) concludes there was no fault attached to the train.

[craigjm]

Stedman said:

Good point. There is a system in place, it's called 'interlock'. Unfortunately you can 'gain interlock' (as it's known) with a hand, crutch etc trapped in the rubber seal of the doors. The whole thing is now a cluster fk

Interlock is clearly not fit for purpose then because if it can't sense the hand of an adult then what hope has it got of sensing a child.

[Stedman]

craigjm said:

Interlock is clearly not fit for purpose then because if it can't sense the hand of an adult then what hope has it got of sensing a child.

Try telling co's, managers etc that

[craigjm]

Stedman said:

craigjm said:

Interlock is clearly not fit for purpose then because if it can't sense the hand of an adult then what hope has it got of sensing a child.

Try telling co's, managers etc that

Maybe if they were held accountable with the prospect of corporate manslaughter charges for an incident involving death they might listen. As it stands if the driver cannot rely on the "safety" equipment then DOO is not fit for purpose. I guess someone will probably have to die before thats considered.

[tight5]

Stedman said:

craigjm said:

Interlock is clearly not fit for purpose then because if it can't sense the hand of an adult then what hope has it got of sensing a child.

Try telling co's, managers etc that

Or, if it comes to that, anyone on the internet !

[ukwill]

legzr1 said:

Just what you need - a driver controlling a train with 1000 passengers looking at CCTV rather then the route.

Nice to see an industry with a reputation as being one of the safest in the world is happy to accept minimum requirements.
Especially when the current system is safer.

Have you read the thread yet?

A little longer than 5 pages so I understand if you haven't bothered.

An industry with a reputation as being one of the safest in the world (your words), has safety regulators who have stated that DOO is safe.

I don't need to read any of this thread to state that (even though I had previously stated exactly what I had read of this thread).

Frankly, arguing the toss about any of this on the internet is pointless. The job of Regulatory bodies is to regulate an industry for which they are given authority. Union's are not Safety Regulators, nor are they required to be. So listening to them state what is or what is not safe, is in all sense of the word, meaningless.

[frankenstein12]

legzr1 said:

ukwill said:

The report states it looked at (amongst other things) the Results of the trials where the in-cab monitors stay on until the train reaches 4 mph

They very much did conclude standards were being adhered to. Conclusions, point 15:
Industry standards, Railway Group Standards (RGS), Railway Industry Standards(RIS), are the minimum requirements that have to be met. ORR is satisfied that these requirements and those from good practice guides, in relation to DOO operation, are being adhered to.

Finally, the report wasn't based on a single test carried out on a single day.

The report is only 5 pages long. It doesn't take long to read.

Just what you need - a driver controlling a train with 1000 passengers looking at CCTV rather then the route.

Nice to see an industry with a reputation as being one of the safest in the world is happy to accept minimum requirements.
Especially when the current system is safer.

Have you read the thread yet?

A little longer than 5 pages so I understand if you haven't bothered.

Insane...right. I am always hearing of these train drivers just randomly veering off the train tracks

[frankenstein12]

legzr1 said:

frankenstein12 said:

I have no doubt at some point I will that's life. My work within government has shown me the government cannot and should not ever be trusted however the fact is this strike and most of the rails strikes are about pay, perks and job security.

Unfortunately the unions and the workers on strike think the public are that stupid they can't see that.

I also find it rather baffling when I see or hear Southern strikers saying the customer support their strikes when all I see online is vitriol and hatred aimed at both the southern rail drivers and guards as well as to a degree the company.

Personally I would hate to work for southern either now or if the strikes ever end as customers will not treat the staff with any form of courtesy or respect they used to.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Tuesday 10th January 13:03

You have issues.

You hate unions, hate Governement, hate Southern, hate your job?

Well done on a far reaching rant without a point confusing LU station staff with Southern drivers and guards.


I blame cheese sandwiches personally...

Actually I don't hate my job I rather enjoy it even though I don't get paid what its worth. I dont trust the government as I have seen directly how deceitful they are.

I am from a business background and while in principle I don't mind staff having representation against bad employers far too often the unions call strikes for no real reason other than to blackmail companies into giving staff more than the company can afford to or to justify their existence and play politics.

In the Case of Southern there is little justification for the strikes. I have repeatedly told you I think a compromise could be offered by the company of 80% of trains having guards on board however drivers operate the doors however the union and drivers will never in a million years accept that.

[legzr1]

ukwill said:

An industry with a reputation as being one of the safest in the world (your words), has safety regulators who have stated that DOO is safe.

I don't need to read any of this thread to state that (even though I had previously stated exactly what I had read of this thread).

Frankly, arguing the toss about any of this on the internet is pointless. The job of Regulatory bodies is to regulate an industry for which they are given authority. Union's are not Safety Regulators, nor are they required to be. So listening to them state what is or what is not safe, is in all sense of the word, meaningless.

I agree, arguing it with you is pointless - as suspected, your mind is already made up.

If you had read the thread you might have picked up on the questionable independence of the RSSB, ORR and DfT - bodies you put a lot more faith in than those with direct experience of them.
Maybe you'd have seen reference to missing reports removed from their respective websites detailing reduced levels of safety -vs- cost savings just as DfT decided to up the anti, bankroll SR for the duration of any and all industrial action, steer this whole debacle then claim they can't interfere.

Perhaps if you widen your horizons a little (after industrial action naturally - you'll need transport...) you might be interested in what RMT and ASLEF have done for safety on the railway over the years but I guess that doesn't interest you.

You've had your little rant, feel better now?

If your reply is going to be in a similar vein to your recent efforts then don't bother.

[legzr1]

frankenstein12 said:

Insane...right. I am always hearing of these train drivers just randomly veering off the train tracks

Oh, he does sarcasm too.

Go read up on sasspad , it's inherent dangers and possible repercussions.

After that, try signal reversion.

This thread is full of vocal types who seem absolutely clueless about even basic train operations yet think they have something to add.

Try not to become another please.

[RemyMartin81D]

Just another know it all but know fk all type.

Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '

Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.

Mug.

[ukwill]

legzr1 said:

I agree, arguing it with you is pointless - as suspected, your mind is already made up.

If you had read the thread you might have picked up on the questionable independence of the RSSB, ORR and DfT - bodies you put a lot more faith in than those with direct experience of them.
Maybe you'd have seen reference to missing reports removed from their respective websites detailing reduced levels of safety -vs- cost savings just as DfT decided to up the anti, bankroll SR for the duration of any and all industrial action, steer this whole debacle then claim they can't interfere.

Perhaps if you widen your horizons a little (after industrial action naturally - you'll need transport...) you might be interested in what RMT and ASLEF have done for safety on the railway over the years but I guess that doesn't interest you.

You've had your little rant, feel better now?

If your reply is going to be in a similar vein to your recent efforts then don't bother.

You don't see the irony in telling me that my mind is already made up?

The only thing my mind is made up about, is who is in charge of Britain's rail safety regulation. Pretty much everything else is conjecture, as is the way of the internet.

The ORR is Britain's official rail safety regulator. It was created by a Labour Govt in 2003. In and of itself, it is subject to judicial review. So anything it does comes under strict scrutiny. You yourself have already stated that the Rail industry has a reputation as being one of the safest in the world. Well that's because it is subject to strict regulation. And that regulation - it comes from the regulator.

Fundamentally, the regulator has said something (that has already been operational in the UK, in part, for the past 3 decades) is safe. How do you imagine a regulator gets to be in a position to do that? And more importantly, as the regulator itself is subject to judicial review, any regulation it decrees would come under judicial scrutiny - who could just as easily invalidate said regulation.

Technically the Union doesn't have a leg to stand on. And typically, when that point is reached, it's when the strike card gets pulled (ironically, in the name of safety).

Rhetorical: If the regulator had investigated DOO on Southern Trains and reported that it was unsafe to implement, I wonder whether the Unions would have used the report to get Govia to stop with their plans? (which Govia would have had to do, regardless).