How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?
Discussion
I'm not sure if it's an act or if you really believe the stuff you're spouting on here.
ORR - was the Office of Rail Regulation. Now the Office of Road And Rail with new bodies, new ideas and fresh input (lmfao).And a whole heap of questionable decisions, debatable independence and 'suspect' appointments at the top.
Hardly the department set up by Labour over a decade ago.
But, you go on believing your own rhetoric and believing this recent bunch of professionals is responsible for a safer railway.
DOO is adequate, driver+guard is safest - why change things if not for political reasoning?
Answer that please without resorting to Tory=God, Union=Scum.
ORR - was the Office of Rail Regulation. Now the Office of Road And Rail with new bodies, new ideas and fresh input (lmfao).And a whole heap of questionable decisions, debatable independence and 'suspect' appointments at the top.
Hardly the department set up by Labour over a decade ago.
But, you go on believing your own rhetoric and believing this recent bunch of professionals is responsible for a safer railway.
DOO is adequate, driver+guard is safest - why change things if not for political reasoning?
Answer that please without resorting to Tory=God, Union=Scum.
legzr1 said:
I'm not sure if it's an act or if you really believe the stuff you're spouting on here.
ORR - was the Office of Rail Regulation. Now the Office of Road And Rail with new bodies, new ideas and fresh input (lmfao).And a whole heap of questionable decisions, debatable independence and 'suspect' appointments at the top.
Hardly the department set up by Labour over a decade ago.
But, you go on believing your own rhetoric and believing this recent bunch of professionals is responsible for a safer railway.
DOO is adequate, driver+guard is safest - why change things if not for political reasoning?
Answer that please without resorting to Tory=God, Union=Scum.
The ORR isn't new. Since 2015 it now also monitors the Highways Agency. That is it.ORR - was the Office of Rail Regulation. Now the Office of Road And Rail with new bodies, new ideas and fresh input (lmfao).And a whole heap of questionable decisions, debatable independence and 'suspect' appointments at the top.
Hardly the department set up by Labour over a decade ago.
But, you go on believing your own rhetoric and believing this recent bunch of professionals is responsible for a safer railway.
DOO is adequate, driver+guard is safest - why change things if not for political reasoning?
Answer that please without resorting to Tory=God, Union=Scum.
Nothing I have said pertaining to the ORR is based on my own rhetoric. It is the rail safety regulator, not any Union.
For some reason you are intent on making this political. The job of the safety regulator is not politics. But because you refuse to countenance that the ORR could possibly be simply doing it's job (as it's been doing for well over a decade, in it's current guise), there is simply nothing left to be said.
ukwill said:
The ORR isn't new. Since 2015 it now also monitors the Highways Agency. That is it.
Nothing I have said pertaining to the ORR is based on my own rhetoric. It is the rail safety regulator, not any Union.
For some reason you are intent on making this political. The job of the safety regulator is not politics. But because you refuse to countenance that the ORR could possibly be simply doing it's job (as it's been doing for well over a decade, in it's current guise), there is simply nothing left to be said.
You don't get it (and I suspect you never will admit it if you did).Nothing I have said pertaining to the ORR is based on my own rhetoric. It is the rail safety regulator, not any Union.
For some reason you are intent on making this political. The job of the safety regulator is not politics. But because you refuse to countenance that the ORR could possibly be simply doing it's job (as it's been doing for well over a decade, in it's current guise), there is simply nothing left to be said.
I'm not making this political - the current Government did that, Wilkinsons' half-arsed rant did that, missing reports from the RSSB did that, £50M spent on needless court proceedings trying to stop a perfectly legal ballot did that, obvious and nasty provocation did that.
Deny it all you like.
And suggesting the ORR of the past year is the same as the ORR of the past decade shows a little,ignorance of the changes at the top.
Even the RMT spotted that.
Some time ago I suspected I was wasting my time with you.
Now I'm quite sure
Any chance of answering my earlier question?
It's quite a simple question.
anyone watch the (very perfunctory) half-hour debate programme on the BBC last night? Might have been regional to those of us struggling on in the South but it's on the BBC iPlayer News section if anyones interested.
Fair to say none of the incumbents covered themselves in glory... Charles Horton looking like a bad Charlie Higson Fast Show skit, writhing like an oily fish and refusing to answer a single direct question... Mick Lynch coming across as a working man's geezer man and equally intransigent... some random busybody from London who was apparently only there to screech about how TFL should take suburban Southern routes in-house (neglecting to mention that TFL were paralysing London with a tube strike that very day or answer what would happen to the non-suburban southern routes0... and a local (Eastbourne) MP (Tory) who's message seemed to consist of "I'm not here to represent the Government on any level ooooh noooo, but I am very much here to get my face about and further my own Thick of It ambitions"
worth a half hour if you want to see four of the most self-obsessed and TV-unfriendly people imaginable in one easy-to-detest package
Fair to say none of the incumbents covered themselves in glory... Charles Horton looking like a bad Charlie Higson Fast Show skit, writhing like an oily fish and refusing to answer a single direct question... Mick Lynch coming across as a working man's geezer man and equally intransigent... some random busybody from London who was apparently only there to screech about how TFL should take suburban Southern routes in-house (neglecting to mention that TFL were paralysing London with a tube strike that very day or answer what would happen to the non-suburban southern routes0... and a local (Eastbourne) MP (Tory) who's message seemed to consist of "I'm not here to represent the Government on any level ooooh noooo, but I am very much here to get my face about and further my own Thick of It ambitions"
worth a half hour if you want to see four of the most self-obsessed and TV-unfriendly people imaginable in one easy-to-detest package
RemyMartin81D said:
Just another know it all but know f
k all type.
Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
Works for the government = civil servant maybe? I wonder if he is a member of the PCS and what his view is on "pay restraint" for the last 10 yearsk all type. Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
craigjm said:
RemyMartin81D said:
Just another know it all but know fk all type.
Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
Works for the government = civil servant maybe? I wonder if he is a member of the PCS and what his view is on "pay restraint" for the last 10 yearsk all type. Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
Nik da Greek said:
craigjm said:
RemyMartin81D said:
Just another know it all but know fk all type.
Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
Works for the government = civil servant maybe? I wonder if he is a member of the PCS and what his view is on "pay restraint" for the last 10 yearsk all type. Works for the government in business and uses words like ' I'd like to see the unions crushed '
Yay! Let's destroy workers rights and civil liberties.
Mug.
Ukwill...
I know its difficult for outsiders to fully understand whats going on in this dispute but you have to put yourself in the position of a train driver to know where they are coming from. Unfortunately you can't.
The DOO situation has been a constant thorne in the side concerning safety for all drivers over the years. Sometimes, it has been the trade union that has agreed conditions for which the drivers have not all been happy with, but rather than kick up a fuss, they carried on. There were quite a few drivers that did not realise all the reality of the new DOO agreements on the fist few days.
In the main, drivers do compromise but you can give to much away for a deal sometimes.
Concerning the doors, and looking back trying to see if people are clear is a clasic example of a compromise, because if its foggy you cant see properly even with monitors so you have to walk back and check that all the people are clear from the doors before closing them. If its a 12 car train, and you close them from the middle, you may not be able to see both ends?? You then have to walk to the rear and check no one is trapped and then walk right back to the front checking the remaining doors....... On a 12 car train?
I did this on 8 car trains, and it was a pain in the butt.
Not that it makes it right, but when you are on your own in thick fog with 12 cars, something is going to happen on one night, turn your head just for a second and miss something, and you may be on a charge in todays railway.
Most of the people during bad conditions haven't got a clue what goes through a drivers mind in those circumstances, its a stressful situation.
Believe it or not monitors can't see through the fog.
This is just one of many safety items that apply to a professional train drivers, so never belittle the train driver.
But lately the safety risks have become more of a sentance than a pleasure to be involved with, and that could just be why southern are not getting the drivers that they want with the conditions that they are offering.
Gadgit.
I know its difficult for outsiders to fully understand whats going on in this dispute but you have to put yourself in the position of a train driver to know where they are coming from. Unfortunately you can't.
The DOO situation has been a constant thorne in the side concerning safety for all drivers over the years. Sometimes, it has been the trade union that has agreed conditions for which the drivers have not all been happy with, but rather than kick up a fuss, they carried on. There were quite a few drivers that did not realise all the reality of the new DOO agreements on the fist few days.
In the main, drivers do compromise but you can give to much away for a deal sometimes.
Concerning the doors, and looking back trying to see if people are clear is a clasic example of a compromise, because if its foggy you cant see properly even with monitors so you have to walk back and check that all the people are clear from the doors before closing them. If its a 12 car train, and you close them from the middle, you may not be able to see both ends?? You then have to walk to the rear and check no one is trapped and then walk right back to the front checking the remaining doors....... On a 12 car train?
I did this on 8 car trains, and it was a pain in the butt.
Not that it makes it right, but when you are on your own in thick fog with 12 cars, something is going to happen on one night, turn your head just for a second and miss something, and you may be on a charge in todays railway.
Most of the people during bad conditions haven't got a clue what goes through a drivers mind in those circumstances, its a stressful situation.
Believe it or not monitors can't see through the fog.
This is just one of many safety items that apply to a professional train drivers, so never belittle the train driver.
But lately the safety risks have become more of a sentance than a pleasure to be involved with, and that could just be why southern are not getting the drivers that they want with the conditions that they are offering.
Gadgit.
gadgit said:
on one night, turn your head just for a second and miss something, and you may be on a charge in todays railway.
This is the issue. One mistake or distraction and you could end up inside. Who would want to face that every day? Its bad enough that drivers have to deal with selfish people throwing themselves infront of their trains never mind having a death on your conscience for one lapse and ending up examining that conscience over and over in a prison cell. ukwill said:
You don't see the irony in telling me that my mind is already made up? 
He's a professional train driver, what are you ?He's got years of experience of driving trains, what have you got ?
Nik da Greek said:
anyone watch the (very perfunctory) half-hour debate programme on the BBC last night? Might have been regional to those of us struggling on in the South but it's on the BBC iPlayer News section if anyones interested.
Fair to say none of the incumbents covered themselves in glory... Charles Horton looking like a bad Charlie Higson Fast Show skit, writhing like an oily fish and refusing to answer a single direct question... Mick Lynch coming across as a working man's geezer man and equally intransigent... some random busybody from London who was apparently only there to screech about how TFL should take suburban Southern routes in-house (neglecting to mention that TFL were paralysing London with a tube strike that very day or answer what would happen to the non-suburban southern routes0... and a local (Eastbourne) MP (Tory) who's message seemed to consist of "I'm not here to represent the Government on any level ooooh noooo, but I am very much here to get my face about and further my own Thick of It ambitions"
worth a half hour if you want to see four of the most self-obsessed and TV-unfriendly people imaginable in one easy-to-detest package
Aslef were invited to go, to sit in the audience !!!Fair to say none of the incumbents covered themselves in glory... Charles Horton looking like a bad Charlie Higson Fast Show skit, writhing like an oily fish and refusing to answer a single direct question... Mick Lynch coming across as a working man's geezer man and equally intransigent... some random busybody from London who was apparently only there to screech about how TFL should take suburban Southern routes in-house (neglecting to mention that TFL were paralysing London with a tube strike that very day or answer what would happen to the non-suburban southern routes0... and a local (Eastbourne) MP (Tory) who's message seemed to consist of "I'm not here to represent the Government on any level ooooh noooo, but I am very much here to get my face about and further my own Thick of It ambitions"
worth a half hour if you want to see four of the most self-obsessed and TV-unfriendly people imaginable in one easy-to-detest package
gadgit said:
Ukwill...
Concerning the doors, and looking back trying to see if people are clear is a clasic example of a compromise, because if its foggy you cant see properly even with monitors
You get a great view in the rain, too !Concerning the doors, and looking back trying to see if people are clear is a clasic example of a compromise, because if its foggy you cant see properly even with monitors
tight5 said:
You get a great view in the rain, too !
Now imagine that image on a rammed platform with people fighting to get on or the sun shining onto the monitors or passengers running for the train out of view (notice how you can only see a few feet from the platform edge. then we get the blame for closing the doors on someone). I got some bloke's scarf in the doors once. Fortunately he was inside the train. I think both of us had a bit of a fear moment about if it'd been the other way round.
The problem is we now live in a world where we have to protect every living cretin from their own stupidity. It's why there are no interesting-looking cars built any more because they have to be a nice place for some iPod-wearing moron to get run over. 15 years ago on slam-door trains it was accepted that halfwits would open the doors and make a running landing on the platform when the train was still doing 30mph. Nowadays we have to legislate for all those retards who think the hustle alarm means "fling yourself at the train in the blind optimism you're a) capable of ninja-level acrobatics rather than a portly forty-something who last ran in 1987 and b) you won't at the least have one of your favourite limbs squashed/fall under the train and juice yourself like a frying sausage/at best be the target of derision from your more fortunate travelling peers inside the train/miss it anyway/all of the above".
The railway is a very dangerous place. I've seen very up close and personal what happens when a human gets run over by 400 tonnes of train or fries themselves of hundreds of DC volts. The only reason we don't kill more people on a daily basis is due to the vigilance and professionalism of the staff, but it seems the casual observer is more than happy for that statistic to climb sky-high just because they have some Carry on at Your Convenience-era vision of what Union means.
The problem is we now live in a world where we have to protect every living cretin from their own stupidity. It's why there are no interesting-looking cars built any more because they have to be a nice place for some iPod-wearing moron to get run over. 15 years ago on slam-door trains it was accepted that halfwits would open the doors and make a running landing on the platform when the train was still doing 30mph. Nowadays we have to legislate for all those retards who think the hustle alarm means "fling yourself at the train in the blind optimism you're a) capable of ninja-level acrobatics rather than a portly forty-something who last ran in 1987 and b) you won't at the least have one of your favourite limbs squashed/fall under the train and juice yourself like a frying sausage/at best be the target of derision from your more fortunate travelling peers inside the train/miss it anyway/all of the above".
The railway is a very dangerous place. I've seen very up close and personal what happens when a human gets run over by 400 tonnes of train or fries themselves of hundreds of DC volts. The only reason we don't kill more people on a daily basis is due to the vigilance and professionalism of the staff, but it seems the casual observer is more than happy for that statistic to climb sky-high just because they have some Carry on at Your Convenience-era vision of what Union means.
This might be of interest to some
ASLEF's response to ORR report
5 Jan 2017
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, today responded to the ORR report on DOO. Mick said: ‘Despite what Southern Railways is disingenuously claiming, the report from the Office of Rail and Road does not give driver only operation a clean bill of health. It doesn’t say it is safe, merely that it can be safe.
‘You will notice that Ian Prosser, HM Chief Inspector of Railways, is careful to qualify his remarks and say “with suitable equipment, proper procedures, and competent staff in place” it can be a method of working. And, indeed, Ian goes on to say that the ORR has made a long list of recommendations for further improvements because they fear it is not safe. Those recommendations, the company concedes, are not yet in place.
‘The ORR says, on visibility [point 8] that “not all stations meet this requirement”. It also says [point 11] that it has identified stations that suffer from dangerous overcrowding and “the viewing corridor will be difficult for the driver to observe and carry out the train safety check”.
‘The company seems to expect drivers to operate trains which it knows are unsafe –because it concedes the work the ORR wants done has not yet been completed –which proves, yet again, that this is all about putting profit before passenger safety.
‘The truth is that passengers, every time they are asked, want a second safety-critical person on their trains. On board to help the elderly, the young, and the disabled. The company, which doesn’t seem to care what passengers to think, want to take us one step closer to losing that second role.’
Mick added: ‘Comparisons with Thameslink – always being made by the company – are meaningless because Thameslink trains have station staff dispatch on every platform while Southern does not. In the Southern area, many stations are unmanned, or undermanned.
‘The industry’s approach is also spectacularly inconsistent. New rolling stock on four more franchises – Great Western, East Coast, Greater Anglia and TransPennine Express – has been procured with no provision for DOO. Because they know it’s not safe.’
ASLEF's response to ORR report
5 Jan 2017
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, today responded to the ORR report on DOO. Mick said: ‘Despite what Southern Railways is disingenuously claiming, the report from the Office of Rail and Road does not give driver only operation a clean bill of health. It doesn’t say it is safe, merely that it can be safe.
‘You will notice that Ian Prosser, HM Chief Inspector of Railways, is careful to qualify his remarks and say “with suitable equipment, proper procedures, and competent staff in place” it can be a method of working. And, indeed, Ian goes on to say that the ORR has made a long list of recommendations for further improvements because they fear it is not safe. Those recommendations, the company concedes, are not yet in place.
‘The ORR says, on visibility [point 8] that “not all stations meet this requirement”. It also says [point 11] that it has identified stations that suffer from dangerous overcrowding and “the viewing corridor will be difficult for the driver to observe and carry out the train safety check”.
‘The company seems to expect drivers to operate trains which it knows are unsafe –because it concedes the work the ORR wants done has not yet been completed –which proves, yet again, that this is all about putting profit before passenger safety.
‘The truth is that passengers, every time they are asked, want a second safety-critical person on their trains. On board to help the elderly, the young, and the disabled. The company, which doesn’t seem to care what passengers to think, want to take us one step closer to losing that second role.’
Mick added: ‘Comparisons with Thameslink – always being made by the company – are meaningless because Thameslink trains have station staff dispatch on every platform while Southern does not. In the Southern area, many stations are unmanned, or undermanned.
‘The industry’s approach is also spectacularly inconsistent. New rolling stock on four more franchises – Great Western, East Coast, Greater Anglia and TransPennine Express – has been procured with no provision for DOO. Because they know it’s not safe.’
gadgit said:
Ukwill...
I know its difficult for outsiders to fully understand whats going on in this dispute but you have to put yourself in the position of a train driver to know where they are coming from. Unfortunately you can't.
The DOO situation has been a constant thorne in the side concerning safety for all drivers over the years. Sometimes, it has been the trade union that has agreed conditions for which the drivers have not all been happy with, but rather than kick up a fuss, they carried on. There were quite a few drivers that did not realise all the reality of the new DOO agreements on the fist few days.
In the main, drivers do compromise but you can give to much away for a deal sometimes.
Concerning the doors, and looking back trying to see if people are clear is a clasic example of a compromise, because if its foggy you cant see properly even with monitors so you have to walk back and check that all the people are clear from the doors before closing them. If its a 12 car train, and you close them from the middle, you may not be able to see both ends?? You then have to walk to the rear and check no one is trapped and then walk right back to the front checking the remaining doors....... On a 12 car train?
I did this on 8 car trains, and it was a pain in the butt.
Not that it makes it right, but when you are on your own in thick fog with 12 cars, something is going to happen on one night, turn your head just for a second and miss something, and you may be on a charge in todays railway.
Most of the people during bad conditions haven't got a clue what goes through a drivers mind in those circumstances, its a stressful situation.
Believe it or not monitors can't see through the fog.
This is just one of many safety items that apply to a professional train drivers, so never belittle the train driver.
But lately the safety risks have become more of a sentance than a pleasure to be involved with, and that could just be why southern are not getting the drivers that they want with the conditions that they are offering.
Gadgit.
Hi Gadgit. Thanks - a refreshingly adult-like and informative response. Appreciate it. I know its difficult for outsiders to fully understand whats going on in this dispute but you have to put yourself in the position of a train driver to know where they are coming from. Unfortunately you can't.
The DOO situation has been a constant thorne in the side concerning safety for all drivers over the years. Sometimes, it has been the trade union that has agreed conditions for which the drivers have not all been happy with, but rather than kick up a fuss, they carried on. There were quite a few drivers that did not realise all the reality of the new DOO agreements on the fist few days.
In the main, drivers do compromise but you can give to much away for a deal sometimes.
Concerning the doors, and looking back trying to see if people are clear is a clasic example of a compromise, because if its foggy you cant see properly even with monitors so you have to walk back and check that all the people are clear from the doors before closing them. If its a 12 car train, and you close them from the middle, you may not be able to see both ends?? You then have to walk to the rear and check no one is trapped and then walk right back to the front checking the remaining doors....... On a 12 car train?
I did this on 8 car trains, and it was a pain in the butt.
Not that it makes it right, but when you are on your own in thick fog with 12 cars, something is going to happen on one night, turn your head just for a second and miss something, and you may be on a charge in todays railway.
Most of the people during bad conditions haven't got a clue what goes through a drivers mind in those circumstances, its a stressful situation.
Believe it or not monitors can't see through the fog.
This is just one of many safety items that apply to a professional train drivers, so never belittle the train driver.
But lately the safety risks have become more of a sentance than a pleasure to be involved with, and that could just be why southern are not getting the drivers that they want with the conditions that they are offering.
Gadgit.
You are very right, I can't put myself in the position of a Train Driver because I'm not one. But you can surely appreciate that this logic, in itself, is irrelevant to the rail regulator. After all - they're the one's tasked to create/monitor and enforce regulation, not me.
Take the recent report from ORR regarding Southern - routes with newly launched DOO dispatch have, amongst other things, had inspections carried out (alongside the driver), by RailOps Specialist Inspectors (as anyone would expect). As a consequence (no doubt with the help of the Drivers feedback), The ORR have instructed Southern to make a number of improvements/alterations/process amendments etc. Clearly, it's not simply a case of ORR saying "ok, DOO is safe on all routes, fill your boots TOCs!". You make a great point regarding weather conditions, and I would agree with you, in so far as suggesting that if DOO was weather-dependant I'm not sure it would be feasible - but then that's simply my brief thoughts on it. I'm not the safety regulator, I've not given it more than 2mins of thought. I think we can both agree that the regulator would be well aware of (and have regulated for) such things as operating in inclement conditions?
There are many industries where failure to comply with regulations can lead to a jail sentence, the rail industry is in no way unique in this respect. And yes, I'm sure it's a stressful occupation, but again, in no way is that unique to train drivers.
I'm sure that if I were a train driver, and DOO was looming, and it was new to me, I too would be majorly apprehensive; that's only human. The problem is, as it's already been in place for such a long period of time (and not just in the UK), I can't really see it not being part of the future of rail.
cheers!
tight5 said:
ASLEF's response to ORR report
5 Jan 2017
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, today responded to the ORR report on DOO. ‘Comparisons with Thameslink – always being made by the company – are meaningless because Thameslink trains have station staff dispatch on every platform while Southern does not. In the Southern area, many stations are unmanned, or undermanned.
Solid fella though Mick is and very good at getting blokes off sacking under MFA, he's dropped a b5 Jan 2017
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, today responded to the ORR report on DOO. ‘Comparisons with Thameslink – always being made by the company – are meaningless because Thameslink trains have station staff dispatch on every platform while Southern does not. In the Southern area, many stations are unmanned, or undermanned.
k here. Because this is not truetight5 said:
‘The industry’s approach is also spectacularly inconsistent. New rolling stock on four more franchises – Great Western, East Coast, Greater Anglia and TransPennine Express – has been procured with no provision for DOO. Because they know it’s not safe.’
However, this is. And yet, Arriva north staff are contemplating industrial action over introduction of DOO trains on their patch...anonymous said:
[redacted]
The force needed to free something from a train door was investigated as part of the West Wickham accident and it is actually very high. Certainly in my experience it is higher than the force needed for a tube train.Actually its also why I think DOO might be less safe on quiet trains, because there is no one else around to help force the doors open. On a rush hour train there are invariably people around to assist holding the door open.
On the issue of the ORR report it is interesting that there have apparently recently been significant staff changes at that organisation and a number are government appointments. I have not checked the accuracy of RMT information on this but it does look a bit suspicous.
Nik da Greek said:
tight5 said:
‘The industry’s approach is also spectacularly inconsistent. New rolling stock on four more franchises – Great Western, East Coast, Greater Anglia and TransPennine Express – has been procured with no provision for DOO. Because they know it’s not safe.’
However, this is. And yet, Arriva north staff are contemplating industrial action over introduction of DOO trains on their patch...Chrisgr31 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Actually its also why I think DOO might be less safe on quiet trains, because there is no one else around to help force the doors open. On a rush hour train there are invariably people around to assist holding the door open.Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff