Renovating an old wooden sports boat, am I mad?
Discussion
Simpo Two said:
I did a time lapse for my toboggan build, it was rubbish!I'll dig out my old video camera though, I'm sure that had a time lapse setting on it. I can possibly plug it in permanently and mount it on the wall or something.
Will try to do this before the actual assembly starts, would be good to see it come together.
Excellent idea.
Picked up a mahoosive industrial screw compressor today, good for sanding tools (and the shot blaster cabinet). Silicon bronze screws and nails shipped today too, so I'll have them on Monday. Looks like I need to finish the frames this weekend as I'll have everything I need to start making shapes next week. Scary.
Took the advantage of passing the Alfa Romeo garage to slap down my deposit on a 4C, so I'm in line to get one in about 12 months. Need to clear some space, but that's not exactly a hardship.
Took the advantage of passing the Alfa Romeo garage to slap down my deposit on a 4C, so I'm in line to get one in about 12 months. Need to clear some space, but that's not exactly a hardship.
It's a 23' home made wooden boat, fabricated by an idiot. A V12 would last about 5 minutes. 
Probably going to go with something around a 5 - 6L V8, petrol rather than diesel. It's not going to get huge hours of use, so the diesel economy won't be worth it. I fancy a nice V8 rumble too.
Probably going to go with something around a 5 - 6L V8, petrol rather than diesel. It's not going to get huge hours of use, so the diesel economy won't be worth it. I fancy a nice V8 rumble too.
Sunday evening update.
Saturday was a dead loss, but I managed to get a few hours in today. Finished off the frames, cut out the stem and breasthook, fine-tuned the gussets based on the actual frame timbers and they're ready to cut out.
Pics;
Transom framing and frame 1 in the upper.
Frames 2, 3 and 4 ready to go.
Frames 5, 6, 7, 8 and the breasthook and stem cut out of 3/4" ply.
I must have been incredibly frugal with the timber. I've only used a fraction of the framework timber I purchased, there's loads left in the pile. Probably enough to make another full set of frames at least.
I've still got the deck beams to cut out (have made the curved template already), but will leave this until after the frames are ready, so I'll be able to measure each one individually. It'll save some big offcuts if I make each one to measure rather than just cutting out 4 x full-length beams and cutting half of it off the smaller ones.
That's the total offcuts, including the MDF I used the make the templates. Doesn't seem like much!
Gussets drawn on the ply, ready for cutting out. I've done so much jigsaw work today, I'd had enough by this point. I'll finish them off early next week.
So, frames all ready, gussets not far off. I just need the silicon bronze screws and nails, mix up some epoxy, and I can start getting the frames made up.
I might start notching out the motor stringers if I get chance, this will be the first thing I'll need once the frames are done and dry, so might as well get them ready.
Another week or two and it'll start to take shape....
Saturday was a dead loss, but I managed to get a few hours in today. Finished off the frames, cut out the stem and breasthook, fine-tuned the gussets based on the actual frame timbers and they're ready to cut out.
Pics;
Transom framing and frame 1 in the upper.
Frames 2, 3 and 4 ready to go.
Frames 5, 6, 7, 8 and the breasthook and stem cut out of 3/4" ply.
I must have been incredibly frugal with the timber. I've only used a fraction of the framework timber I purchased, there's loads left in the pile. Probably enough to make another full set of frames at least.
I've still got the deck beams to cut out (have made the curved template already), but will leave this until after the frames are ready, so I'll be able to measure each one individually. It'll save some big offcuts if I make each one to measure rather than just cutting out 4 x full-length beams and cutting half of it off the smaller ones.
That's the total offcuts, including the MDF I used the make the templates. Doesn't seem like much!
Gussets drawn on the ply, ready for cutting out. I've done so much jigsaw work today, I'd had enough by this point. I'll finish them off early next week.
So, frames all ready, gussets not far off. I just need the silicon bronze screws and nails, mix up some epoxy, and I can start getting the frames made up.
I might start notching out the motor stringers if I get chance, this will be the first thing I'll need once the frames are done and dry, so might as well get them ready.
Another week or two and it'll start to take shape....
OneDs said:
Great work again maser, jigsaw... I thought you were using the mdf as a template and the router table with a guided bit? The timber looks pretty good quality d fir (not much sign of knots) and as you say the scrap pile isn't huge so I'm assuming you haven't made a conscious to cut round them to get ideal parts. Robbins you used was't it?
Method: draw round template, cut with jigsaw or bandsaw, finish with the router to get a perfect line (which I've made sure of by getting the templates spot on).Edited by OneDs on Sunday 19th January 20:12
Timber has been excellent quality, apart from one length that was bloody hard, took ages to cut!
Cutting parts, given it's all planks, there's only one way you can cut all the parts, lengthwise along the lumber. Not much option to do it any other way. It's what's recommended in the plans anyway and will give the most strength with the grain running lengthwise. Because I've had templates, I've been able to make the most of the lengths and widths (some widths have been just a couple of mm wide enough for a part), making them back up against each other, etc (similar to the gussets, squeeze as many in to the material as possible, which is much easier when you have a former). It's saved cutting time as well as timber. All good.
Can't cut the gussets with the bandsaw, it'll be bloody hard to get a sheet of ply up in the air and feed it through.
Was keen to get them done tonight, but I'd made enough progress today and have to stop somewhere.
I need to learn how to mix epoxy next week too, that'll be interesting....
Edited by maser_spyder on Monday 20th January 09:43
Simpo Two said:
I think you should make a scaled-down copy of the plans and build a perfect miniature for your mantelpiece! (or bath)
I like the way you rule out a V12, but immediately suggest a 6.0 V8
I made a radio controlled one when I was about ten, took a year to build it, 10cc nitro engine, was superb. Still have it in the shed. I should get it our really.I like the way you rule out a V12, but immediately suggest a 6.0 V8
Anyway, that's the sum total of my boat building experience. Not great, given what I'm attempting here.
benters said:
maser_spyder said:
I've got a spare hood frame, one of the split types for a later car. Managed to find an original one-piece unit so my split one is going spare if that helps!
Anyway, it's a sprite, what do you need a roof for anyway?
Hi. checked my hood frame at the weekend as the re-roof is creeping up the to do list and mins maybe bent, but i dont have anything to compare it too. . .would you have a picture of yours up " so to speak" Anyway, it's a sprite, what do you need a roof for anyway?
Both are in need of some attention! Will get a pic of the two-piece one for you later, no worries.
OneDs said:
Maser, out of interest, what is the cold molding process (number of layers & directions) and what wood are you using, mahogany ply or a solid veneer (what thickness)?
Given the desire for the V8, the size of the boat, the use of D fir vs mahogany in the frames and the weight of any power train. What are your power/weight and ballast needs? I'm assuming the amount of ballast and placement can be adjusted as required after some early testing.
Cold moulding will be 4 x thicknesses on the bottom, 3 x on the sides. Using 3mm ply, all done diagonally opposing for each layer. Then a final veneer of mahogany lengthwise.Given the desire for the V8, the size of the boat, the use of D fir vs mahogany in the frames and the weight of any power train. What are your power/weight and ballast needs? I'm assuming the amount of ballast and placement can be adjusted as required after some early testing.
Power/weight and ballast I can work out later. The finished hull should weigh in at around 500Kg dry.
Given the nature of home-built boats like this, where every one is different, I don't think you can accurately predict ballast in the early build stages. Realistically, it's going to be something that's added retrospectively after a shakedown as and where required.
The seats are all easily removed (I'll make them that way on purpose), so access to the hull is relatively straightforward for maintenance.
It's not a racing boat, rather a nice burbly sounding runabout for fine weather. I doubt it'll ever see V-max (at least not at my hand).
That's assuming it ever sees the water! Silicon bronze bits arrived an hour ago, so I'm off to start making shapes at last.
RichB said:
maser_spyder said:
It's not a racing boat, rather a nice burbly sounding runabout for fine weather..
Is this for sea or river use or both? But as Simpo pointed out at the start, there's no wet weather gear anyway, so it's hardly a bad-weather boat in the first place.
It'll probably be for sunny days on the Solent, and possibly go out to Italy or France at some point for a summer. At 500kg plus the fittings it'll be a lightweight boat to tow at least.
Today's update. I need epoxy! Had a set of 'fast' epoxy so thought I'd use it up on the frames, and get some West Systems stuff for the cold moulding. But the stuff I've got is past it's sell-by date, so I'm certainly not going to risk using it on important stuff like frames.
I'm not sure if Wessex has a trade counter, but if they do I'll pick some up tomorrow. Failing that, I'll have to order it online and wait....
More pics (I got the hood frame out to take a pic and forgot! Will do it tomorrow).
Given I've had some spare time, I made up all the gussets and then sanded them to a nice rounded finish.
To give you an idea, this is how useful the table router is. You can rough cut, VERY quickly, all of the parts. No need to worry about getting it wrong, they just need to be rough outlines and larger than the template. Quick and easy jigsaw work, took about 10 minutes to cut them out of ply.
I have a 1 1/2" router bit, so can cut about 1" of material at once. The ply is 1/2", so that's two parts at once. Screw the former to a pair of rough cut parts.
You can see how rough the parts are compared to the template (template is at the bottom here). You can see the guide on the router bit at the bottom, this lines up with the template.
You end up with 2 x parts identical to the template part. Place the part on the second two parts, repeat, and there are 4 x gussets ready for each frame.
Doing it this way means you end up with 4 x totally identical gussets ready to line up on the frames. A bit of light sanding to take the rough edges off is all they need.
I made 28 gussets in about 45 minutes, which is so much quicker than trying to do them individually. They're also completely identical so makes it much quicker and easier when assembling the frames.
If you ever wanted to see what nearly £600 worth of screws and nails looks like, this is it. It's not even half of what I need, but I'm hoping to use stainless to assemble and then remove when epoxy sets (where possible). I'll only use the silicon bronze where they'll actually have to stay in the timber after the boat is finished, so the gusset nails, transom beams, frame to motor stringer coach bolts, etc. will all be silicon bronze. VERY expensive, but the only material that will last a lifetime in salt water.
So, not very exciting so far I'm afraid, it's all parts and cutting (which I'm getting a little bored of myself now). With epoxy in hand, it'll start to get a bit more exciting.
I'm not sure if Wessex has a trade counter, but if they do I'll pick some up tomorrow. Failing that, I'll have to order it online and wait....
More pics (I got the hood frame out to take a pic and forgot! Will do it tomorrow).
Given I've had some spare time, I made up all the gussets and then sanded them to a nice rounded finish.
To give you an idea, this is how useful the table router is. You can rough cut, VERY quickly, all of the parts. No need to worry about getting it wrong, they just need to be rough outlines and larger than the template. Quick and easy jigsaw work, took about 10 minutes to cut them out of ply.
I have a 1 1/2" router bit, so can cut about 1" of material at once. The ply is 1/2", so that's two parts at once. Screw the former to a pair of rough cut parts.
You can see how rough the parts are compared to the template (template is at the bottom here). You can see the guide on the router bit at the bottom, this lines up with the template.
You end up with 2 x parts identical to the template part. Place the part on the second two parts, repeat, and there are 4 x gussets ready for each frame.
Doing it this way means you end up with 4 x totally identical gussets ready to line up on the frames. A bit of light sanding to take the rough edges off is all they need.
I made 28 gussets in about 45 minutes, which is so much quicker than trying to do them individually. They're also completely identical so makes it much quicker and easier when assembling the frames.
If you ever wanted to see what nearly £600 worth of screws and nails looks like, this is it. It's not even half of what I need, but I'm hoping to use stainless to assemble and then remove when epoxy sets (where possible). I'll only use the silicon bronze where they'll actually have to stay in the timber after the boat is finished, so the gusset nails, transom beams, frame to motor stringer coach bolts, etc. will all be silicon bronze. VERY expensive, but the only material that will last a lifetime in salt water.
So, not very exciting so far I'm afraid, it's all parts and cutting (which I'm getting a little bored of myself now). With epoxy in hand, it'll start to get a bit more exciting.
I'm set up for self-launching!
I've got an electric winch on the back of the Landcruiser with a remote. I use it for launching the jet boats.
Back up to edge of slipway, chock trailer wheels.
Clip winch to trailer.
Detach trailer from truck.
Jump in boat, winch away, park boat.
Winch back in, right up to the hitch, drive away.
Doing it this way means the truck wheels never even get wet.
I've got an electric winch on the back of the Landcruiser with a remote. I use it for launching the jet boats.
Back up to edge of slipway, chock trailer wheels.
Clip winch to trailer.
Detach trailer from truck.
Jump in boat, winch away, park boat.
Winch back in, right up to the hitch, drive away.
Doing it this way means the truck wheels never even get wet.
I went to the Wessex Resins factory yesterday, they have a small trade counter in reception. A little more expensive than it's possible to buy online, but I got some excellent advice on which products to use so worth every penny.
I have a feeling my resin bill is going to be big though. £180 on some resin, hardener and some filling stuff that you should use for cold moulding. The guy recommended using a little notched trowel thing as well, a bit like tiling, which makes a lot of sense. Bought a set of pumps too, so mixing will be a doddle. From a rough guesstimate, I'm going to need at least four times more again.
So I need to add about £800 to my build costs for the epoxy. Not the end of the world, but quite a significant amount on the total.
I'm in for about £3500 so far. Big things left to purchase, engine, bulk of the epoxy, fittings (rudder, prop shaft, fuel tank, etc), covering board (mahogany). I should have enough timber to do the bulk of the build though.
No progress last night, I had to put a jeep together for a customer and it took hours. Going to try and get some frames made today though.
I have a feeling my resin bill is going to be big though. £180 on some resin, hardener and some filling stuff that you should use for cold moulding. The guy recommended using a little notched trowel thing as well, a bit like tiling, which makes a lot of sense. Bought a set of pumps too, so mixing will be a doddle. From a rough guesstimate, I'm going to need at least four times more again.
So I need to add about £800 to my build costs for the epoxy. Not the end of the world, but quite a significant amount on the total.I'm in for about £3500 so far. Big things left to purchase, engine, bulk of the epoxy, fittings (rudder, prop shaft, fuel tank, etc), covering board (mahogany). I should have enough timber to do the bulk of the build though.
No progress last night, I had to put a jeep together for a customer and it took hours. Going to try and get some frames made today though.
Eleven said:
What do you think it's going to cost all up?
It'll depend quite a lot on the engine choice. If I go for a new, crate engine like a 350 or 377 Mag, that's going to be a lot more expensive than a second hand unit or something from a scrapper.Total timber around £4000. Fittings, prop shaft, etc. around £3000. Upholstery £2000. Epoxy and fibreglass £2000. Screws and nails £1000. Tools (might as well add them in) £1500. Trailer £2000.
I make that about £16000 with some room for error, plus the engine.
Might add some electronics too, not sure yet.
So, about £20 - £25k all-in.
Oh, labour, 600 hours @ £150 p/h, £90k.
Fishtigua said:
You could just sheath the outside of the hull with a light fibreglass layer and epoxy the bugger. Looks like it has been varnished but is leak proof and durable.
You got it. Once I have a mahogany layer, the next step is a final rub down to make it perfectly flat. Then lay up a single (maybe two on the bottom where it won't be seen) layer of 6oz fibreglass. It's effectively 'clear', but adds a huge amount of strength and abrasion resistance, well worth doing. Then a float coat on top to make it nice and flat, and finish with varnish or something to make it UV proof.By the time I get that far (I'm a long, long way at the moment), I'll probably be a bit more experienced with epoxy so I'm not too worried about the final coat. I'll possibly spray it with varnish, quick and effective, easy to do six or seven coats. I've got the facilities to do this in the workshop, so might as well use them.
Made some frames today, will post some pics when they're all done.
Motor stringers next, then it'll actually start to take some shape at last.
Progress report.
Frames all made, as well as adding the deck beams and scribing all the setup lines and carling points on the frames to make life easier later on. Apart from a small bit of tidying up, the frames are ready to go once the epoxy cures.
Motor stringers next, this should be fairly easy. I'll clamp them together and work down the line, cutting the notches for the frames.
Next will be to get the build jig set up and cut some blocking to fix the frames in place, then on to keel, chine logs, battens, etc.
It's coming along nicely.
Frames all made, as well as adding the deck beams and scribing all the setup lines and carling points on the frames to make life easier later on. Apart from a small bit of tidying up, the frames are ready to go once the epoxy cures.
Motor stringers next, this should be fairly easy. I'll clamp them together and work down the line, cutting the notches for the frames.
Next will be to get the build jig set up and cut some blocking to fix the frames in place, then on to keel, chine logs, battens, etc.
It's coming along nicely.
Steve_D said:
Am I missing something. I would have expected to see the bottom of each frame notched to take the keel.
Steve
Well spotted, somebody's awake. Steve
The front two frames are notched around the stem (on the ground in front, made that yesterday too), and I'll cut these before assembly based on the exact width of the assembled stem for a perfect fit.
The keel is made of two parts laminated together, and easier to fit once the frames are set up and square on the stringers. You also have the correct thickness so can cut it very accurately and get a nice tight fit.
Once the frames are set up there's loads of notches to cut, keel, chine logs, deck chines, battens all have to fit snugly in the frames. Takes the pressure off getting it 100% perfect.
I'm looking forward to the next bit, might try and do it today.
Edited by maser_spyder on Saturday 25th January 06:06
Only a very, very rough approximation. Lots of setting up of the stringers to do yet, I need to make them totally straight and secure before I even attempt to fix anything in place. It's all just plonked on there to get an idea and make sure I haven't made any huge mistakes with the frames.
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