Cheapest (realistic) ATPL
Discussion
I am seriously considering doing an ATPL+IR, as I am fed up and disillusioned with my course and even if I somehow pass this year, next year looks even worse.
I have heard every figure under the sun from £40k to £120k for an ATPL from scratch, and some suggestions to go to AUS for the equivalen JAA licence at reduced cost due to the exchange rate. One name that repeatedly crops up is FTE Jerez, but I gather they are somewhat expensive though comprehensive.
Are there any pilots on here that could advise me? Whatever job I end up with, I want it to be aviation related but it has taken me 2 years to relise that designing them is really not the route for me - yet I have spent huge amounts of time since an early age playing computer flight sims.
I have heard every figure under the sun from £40k to £120k for an ATPL from scratch, and some suggestions to go to AUS for the equivalen JAA licence at reduced cost due to the exchange rate. One name that repeatedly crops up is FTE Jerez, but I gather they are somewhat expensive though comprehensive.
Are there any pilots on here that could advise me? Whatever job I end up with, I want it to be aviation related but it has taken me 2 years to relise that designing them is really not the route for me - yet I have spent huge amounts of time since an early age playing computer flight sims.
It's just ATPL isn't it? The IR is kinda implicit! (you will have done a CPL+IR as a rung on the ladder to ATPL).
I dont know the exact answer to the question, I think it depends if you go modular or integrated but if I were in your position I'd be looking for the best recommended school and scrimp and save the budget needed rather than pick a number and find a school IYSWIM.
Also the AUS exchange rate is not what it was, Oz is a very expensive place to live.
I dont know the exact answer to the question, I think it depends if you go modular or integrated but if I were in your position I'd be looking for the best recommended school and scrimp and save the budget needed rather than pick a number and find a school IYSWIM.
Also the AUS exchange rate is not what it was, Oz is a very expensive place to live.
You need to get on Pprune; shed loads of advice about flying training on there in the forums.
You'll get a cpl/ir for your cash which you then upgrade to an atpl later on. Haven't heard of 40k for a cpl/ir, that seems very low? One of my buddies got his through doing ppl and hours building in the USA, all done as cheap as poss and it cost him in the region of 60k. In 2003!
I think the 120k option you're looking at is the integrated CTC Wings type route, where you do your flying in shiny new aircraft and then have a chance of a job with Easyjet etc at the end. AKA 'pay to fly'. Hugely controversial but for the lucky ones it is a way into the industry. For the unlucky ones, and pprune has quite a few posting there, they often end up at their original job with a six figure debt and a nice unused licence from the caa.
Good luck either way and be very, very, very careful before you spend your cash.
You'll get a cpl/ir for your cash which you then upgrade to an atpl later on. Haven't heard of 40k for a cpl/ir, that seems very low? One of my buddies got his through doing ppl and hours building in the USA, all done as cheap as poss and it cost him in the region of 60k. In 2003!
I think the 120k option you're looking at is the integrated CTC Wings type route, where you do your flying in shiny new aircraft and then have a chance of a job with Easyjet etc at the end. AKA 'pay to fly'. Hugely controversial but for the lucky ones it is a way into the industry. For the unlucky ones, and pprune has quite a few posting there, they often end up at their original job with a six figure debt and a nice unused licence from the caa.
Good luck either way and be very, very, very careful before you spend your cash.
Plus a tenner for the haircut, lol.
Seriously, though; it's a big move. Your cheapest best is to do the bulk of your hours in the US, come back for full-time ATPL ground school, and IR.
You can do that for under 50k. That is the cheapest way to obtain your licenses. However, you want a return on investment, which may make the big, more expensive schools a better choice. They generally have far better employment statistics, although in this day and age, you may find yourself stumping up another 20k for a type rating, for the honour of flying for Ryanair/Easy ettc.
There are some pre-selected mentored schemes out there right now, Flybe/BA, whereby you fund the training but are promised a job at the end - providing satisfactory performance and no economic conditions get in the way.
I understand that this 'pre-approval' by an airline can help in securing finance.
It is a bloody brilliant way to make a living, though. BUT, it is a big risk. You need the true passion for it, because one must understand that should things not lead directly to an airline job, you may be doing instructing/air taxi/charter/small freight etc. for a while. Brilliant fun, but only IF you love to fly. When loading up boxes of car parts into your Navajo at 3am, in the arctic winter, with no sniff of an airline job on the horizon, you still need to feel that your mega-bucks investment was worthwhile.
Seriously, though; it's a big move. Your cheapest best is to do the bulk of your hours in the US, come back for full-time ATPL ground school, and IR.
You can do that for under 50k. That is the cheapest way to obtain your licenses. However, you want a return on investment, which may make the big, more expensive schools a better choice. They generally have far better employment statistics, although in this day and age, you may find yourself stumping up another 20k for a type rating, for the honour of flying for Ryanair/Easy ettc.
There are some pre-selected mentored schemes out there right now, Flybe/BA, whereby you fund the training but are promised a job at the end - providing satisfactory performance and no economic conditions get in the way.
I understand that this 'pre-approval' by an airline can help in securing finance.
It is a bloody brilliant way to make a living, though. BUT, it is a big risk. You need the true passion for it, because one must understand that should things not lead directly to an airline job, you may be doing instructing/air taxi/charter/small freight etc. for a while. Brilliant fun, but only IF you love to fly. When loading up boxes of car parts into your Navajo at 3am, in the arctic winter, with no sniff of an airline job on the horizon, you still need to feel that your mega-bucks investment was worthwhile.
Don't forget to factor in 18-24 months of lost earnings by doing an integrated course. At least with modular you can earn as you fly. I'd have thought the modular route with hour building (and perhaps the PPL) done in the USA would be the cheapest route.
The other thing I'd say is that it's who you know, not what you know, so start making as many contacts as you can now. Oh, and you certainly don't do this job for the money (although it can be very good still in places). I've got plenty of friends who finished their training 5 or 6 years ago and are still on a mid 20s salary.
The other thing I'd say is that it's who you know, not what you know, so start making as many contacts as you can now. Oh, and you certainly don't do this job for the money (although it can be very good still in places). I've got plenty of friends who finished their training 5 or 6 years ago and are still on a mid 20s salary.
And have a look at the possible wages when finishing training. Would you be able to service the debt??
A lot of pay to fly flexiscrew at easy are going bankrupt and moaning about things not being as promised by the training provider for the licenses originally. Go in with your eyes open and expect that you could be very lucky to get a job with Loganair on circa £19000pa. The world is not as rosy as it was 5 years ago with the Greeks having no government, the new French president's economic policy and 26% unemployment in Spain. Thats before even factoring in Iran and Israel/USA and Syria. There may not be much expansion providing new jobs and possibly contraction. If anything all that will happen in consolidation within the industry and the only new positions appearing to replace those retiring or moving to sandpit.
Also budget with easy and ryanair that you will have no basic pay, pension, medical insurance, sick pay and will only be paid for the hours that you work. Some months that may be hardly enough to cover your petrol let alone accommodation, food, and your debts.
Its a great career once past all the bulls
t but there is a hell of a lot of it to wade through barely managing hand to mouth unless you are lucky.
Sorry to be so negative but the industry is not what it was 5 years ago let alone 20 years. Do as much research as possible and go in with your eyes open. Then while training hope the economy stays healthy. My advice would be to hold off on the training until the green shoots start to appear, then start. That way you are hopefully getting on the bandwagon in an improving market mitigating the possibility of not being able to find work at the end. A point where you should be thankful to gain any flying position, not just a shiny jet. No matter what aircraft type or location. Then look for the next step up the rung with experience.
Good luck. Hope that wasn't too much of a rambling nonsense and proves useful.
Finally, have a look on PPrune, there is a lot of rubbish on there but some gems too if your looking. If one person is moaning its probably not that bad, if its everyone then it probably is!
A lot of pay to fly flexiscrew at easy are going bankrupt and moaning about things not being as promised by the training provider for the licenses originally. Go in with your eyes open and expect that you could be very lucky to get a job with Loganair on circa £19000pa. The world is not as rosy as it was 5 years ago with the Greeks having no government, the new French president's economic policy and 26% unemployment in Spain. Thats before even factoring in Iran and Israel/USA and Syria. There may not be much expansion providing new jobs and possibly contraction. If anything all that will happen in consolidation within the industry and the only new positions appearing to replace those retiring or moving to sandpit.
Also budget with easy and ryanair that you will have no basic pay, pension, medical insurance, sick pay and will only be paid for the hours that you work. Some months that may be hardly enough to cover your petrol let alone accommodation, food, and your debts.
Its a great career once past all the bulls
t but there is a hell of a lot of it to wade through barely managing hand to mouth unless you are lucky.Sorry to be so negative but the industry is not what it was 5 years ago let alone 20 years. Do as much research as possible and go in with your eyes open. Then while training hope the economy stays healthy. My advice would be to hold off on the training until the green shoots start to appear, then start. That way you are hopefully getting on the bandwagon in an improving market mitigating the possibility of not being able to find work at the end. A point where you should be thankful to gain any flying position, not just a shiny jet. No matter what aircraft type or location. Then look for the next step up the rung with experience.
Good luck. Hope that wasn't too much of a rambling nonsense and proves useful.
Finally, have a look on PPrune, there is a lot of rubbish on there but some gems too if your looking. If one person is moaning its probably not that bad, if its everyone then it probably is!
Edited by The Big G on Thursday 10th May 17:37
I recently did some sums on the same subject, and worked out I would need pretty much £1M banked to cover training, loss of earnings while training, keeping my house and lifestyle while I take a 80% pay cut, if I was lucky enough to find work, and cover me for the next, say 10 years until I got back to anything close to todays salary. if I was lucky.
I'm sticking to SEP and fun flying.
That said, it would have been a different story if I'd started in my early 20's, rather than my mid 30's.
I'm sticking to SEP and fun flying.
That said, it would have been a different story if I'd started in my early 20's, rather than my mid 30's.
Siko said:
You need to get on Pprune; shed loads of advice about flying training on there in the forums.
You'll get a cpl/ir for your cash which you then upgrade to an atpl later on. Haven't heard of 40k for a cpl/ir, that seems very low? One of my buddies got his through doing ppl and hours building in the USA, all done as cheap as poss and it cost him in the region of 60k. In 2003!
I think the 120k option you're looking at is the integrated CTC Wings type route, where you do your flying in shiny new aircraft and then have a chance of a job with Easyjet etc at the end. AKA 'pay to fly'. Hugely controversial but for the lucky ones it is a way into the industry. For the unlucky ones, and pprune has quite a few posting there, they often end up at their original job with a six figure debt and a nice unused licence from the caa.
Good luck either way and be very, very, very careful before you spend your cash.
Funny I've been chatting today with a recently retired Thomson Skipper who's sone has just done exactly this. He's now a Cadet with Sleazy and takes home £1200/month (I believe Sleaze pay CTC IRO £5000 a month) You'll get a cpl/ir for your cash which you then upgrade to an atpl later on. Haven't heard of 40k for a cpl/ir, that seems very low? One of my buddies got his through doing ppl and hours building in the USA, all done as cheap as poss and it cost him in the region of 60k. In 2003!
I think the 120k option you're looking at is the integrated CTC Wings type route, where you do your flying in shiny new aircraft and then have a chance of a job with Easyjet etc at the end. AKA 'pay to fly'. Hugely controversial but for the lucky ones it is a way into the industry. For the unlucky ones, and pprune has quite a few posting there, they often end up at their original job with a six figure debt and a nice unused licence from the caa.
Good luck either way and be very, very, very careful before you spend your cash.
He did most of his training in NZ. Can find out more info if you wish
Thanks for the advice people.
As I have no debts, no dependants etc as well as still living at home with the parents then I wont have any loss of earnings or stuff like that to cover. My current plan would be to get a dead-end but well paid job (ie. I'm not fussy about working nightshifts) for 2 or 3 years and do a PPL as I go, then save the rest of my earnings up, take out a loan on the difference and sod off to the cheapest reputable flying school for an intensive course.
I am not keen on doing a modular course because having several commercial pilot friends my age (one went straight from college to FTE, then into BA Cityflier), they have all said that the airlines prefer pilots who have done it all in one sitting rather than dribs and drabs over a long period of time.
I have been on PPRUNE a while, but it does seem to be a majority of grumpy old senior pilots that really dont like pay-to-fly newbies (apologies if anyone on here is also a PPRUNE-er)
As I have no debts, no dependants etc as well as still living at home with the parents then I wont have any loss of earnings or stuff like that to cover. My current plan would be to get a dead-end but well paid job (ie. I'm not fussy about working nightshifts) for 2 or 3 years and do a PPL as I go, then save the rest of my earnings up, take out a loan on the difference and sod off to the cheapest reputable flying school for an intensive course.
I am not keen on doing a modular course because having several commercial pilot friends my age (one went straight from college to FTE, then into BA Cityflier), they have all said that the airlines prefer pilots who have done it all in one sitting rather than dribs and drabs over a long period of time.
I have been on PPRUNE a while, but it does seem to be a majority of grumpy old senior pilots that really dont like pay-to-fly newbies (apologies if anyone on here is also a PPRUNE-er)
pprune is alright - some good advice on there, but an awful lot of cr@p too - lot of armchair experts who are probably still at school (or if not, should be).
All the advice on here is pretty much spot-on, although I'm not sure about how you can earn 90K+ after 2 years?!?!
All I would add would be to get yourself medically checked out by the CAA before you spend one penny on flying. You'll need a Class One Medical which is around £400-500 . . .
Good luck
All the advice on here is pretty much spot-on, although I'm not sure about how you can earn 90K+ after 2 years?!?!
All I would add would be to get yourself medically checked out by the CAA before you spend one penny on flying. You'll need a Class One Medical which is around £400-500 . . .
Good luck
5150 said:
All the advice on here is pretty much spot-on, although I'm not sure about how you can earn 90K+ after 2 years?!?!
BA DEP, CX, all the Chinese contracts, a year or so later, the ME - equivalent year 1 EK FO take home is over 105k,excluding education & transport allowances.There is money to be made, particularly outside the uk. Not mega bucks, but certainly good..
Turbodiesel1690 said:
My cousin is off to Florida in July to start his ATPL course from scratch, cost is £80,000 (which my uncle has forked out on his behalf), most training done in US then some in Ireland. He's only 18. Jammy git
How does this work as per the licence he gets? I know if you do all the training in the US you end up with an FAA licence and a nice fee to get converted to a JAA?Having had a look at the JAA class 1 medical standard, it seems there shouldnt be a problem with any of the requirements, but I may drop into my local doctor's surgery to check just in case.
As for the airlines - I am aware that the far east airlines and gulf state carriers are hoovering up pilots and providing a good bay packet, however given that I dont generally like the food or climate anywhere east of Italy I'd be sticking to carriers based in the western hemisphere!
Turbodiesel1690 said:
My cousin is off to Florida in July to start his ATPL course from scratch, cost is £80,000 (which my uncle has forked out on his behalf), most training done in US then some in Ireland. He's only 18. Jammy git
I presume that's with PTC. I wouldn't be too jealous of him yet until he sees the bill for the type rating and ends up hating his life working for ryanair. Aer Lingus ran a part-sponsored cadet scheme late last year. It is tough for non-Irish to get selected but at the same time it has been tough for Aer Lingus to get sufficient good candidates within Ireland. If you have an Irish connection why not get an Irish passport, that could help.
So keep an eye out in case they run the scheme again - they anticipate a demand for pilots over the coming years and you never know. Similarly, there is BA's Future Pilot scheme.
Also, if you can't face a job in the engineering industry (which is understandable; I have many friends who did Aero Eng hoping to be pilots but only the couple who made it are happy enough with their jobs) why not consider a job as ATC, for example at EuroControl. They pay and conditions are much superior to anything you are likely to get in the flying game, at least in the short to medium term.
Perservere.
Good luck.
So keep an eye out in case they run the scheme again - they anticipate a demand for pilots over the coming years and you never know. Similarly, there is BA's Future Pilot scheme.
Also, if you can't face a job in the engineering industry (which is understandable; I have many friends who did Aero Eng hoping to be pilots but only the couple who made it are happy enough with their jobs) why not consider a job as ATC, for example at EuroControl. They pay and conditions are much superior to anything you are likely to get in the flying game, at least in the short to medium term.
Perservere.
Good luck.
kicks said:
I presume that's with PTC. I wouldn't be too jealous of him yet until he sees the bill for the type rating and ends up hating his life working for ryanair.
True enough, but just like any industry, you're lucky if your entry level job is at the top of the ladder.3 years at RYR can set you up nicely for the bigger players. I've many a friend who worked for RYR and EZY, took it for what it is (a lot of well respected experience), and moved on.
Generally, experience is key, and some of the best experience is in 'non-career' posts; freight, RYR, small corporate, etc...
ETOPS said:
BA DEP, CX, all the Chinese contracts, a year or so later, the ME - equivalent year 1 EK FO take home is over 105k,excluding education & transport allowances.
There is money to be made, particularly outside the uk. Not mega bucks, but certainly good..
Hi ETOPS,There is money to be made, particularly outside the uk. Not mega bucks, but certainly good..
Would be interested to find out how you got the figure of over 105k for a year one first officer at Emirates ?
The job has changed dramatically over the years, if I could wind the clock back I would have chosen a different profession.
khaosai said:
Hi ETOPS,
Would be interested to find out how you got the figure of over 105k for a year one first officer at Emirates ?
The job has changed dramatically over the years, if I could wind the clock back I would have chosen a different profession.
You certainly have to make your career choices carefully in this industry. Even in the last few years it's changed. I've heard of some utter horror stories first hand from some peeps. You must have heard of the '49ers' at CX, Mr ETOPS? Would be interested to find out how you got the figure of over 105k for a year one first officer at Emirates ?
The job has changed dramatically over the years, if I could wind the clock back I would have chosen a different profession.
If you do get it right though, it's a bloody good gig. (says he who types this put whilst siting by the out door pool in 28deg heat, relaxing after early shift)
Mat777, not only do you need to research the training, consider who/what/where you are prepared to work for. The golden advice is to grab the first job you can to get that all important first start and gain experience. These days it can be a real stress. Get it right, welcome to the silver spoon. Get it wrong and you can burn out/loose desire rapidly.
Good luck whatever you do
You could apply for the next intake of the BA Future Pilot Programme. I'm about to start on this (at OAA) and it's about the best opportunity to get into the front seat of an A320/B737 there is.
Although a security deposit/bond is required, it is returned to you in full in monthly tax-free installments over 7 years. If you don't have the £84k bond lying around, BA have arranged a bespoke loan at 2.5% interest. In this case, your ATPL, type rating, accommodation, uniform, books etc will cost you only whatever interest it costs you to finance the security bond.
The new 34 point payscale is something you may have read about on pprune. I'm 28 and should make pp34 before retiring (six figure basic salary), but like most of my fellow successful FPP cadet applicants, a career with BA is absolutely my dream job and the money is only a small part of the appeal. Experienced pilots at legacy airlines might tell you that it might not be the career it used to be, and that's probably true, but it's still my dream and beats working for a living.
BA themselves are still unsure when the FPP recruitment will recommence. They had thousands of applications last summer and took 95 cadets on. The last of those commence training next Feb (2013), and will come on the line approximately 18 months after that.
My advice would be to spend the next 12 months or so making yourself as attractive as possible for the next round of sponsorship recruitment (finish your degree, most successful applicants in my intake are graduates and it also shows determination/staying power. Also put yourself in as many leadership and team situations as you can, do a bit of gliding/pleasure flying).
It has always been my dream to be an airline pilot, and I have been capable of doing it for a few years, but I wasn't prepared to borrow so much money (six figures with a type rating) for an integrated ATPL course with no guarantee of a job at the end. Pprune provides some sobering reading about pay to fly schemes and low hours, newly qualified pilots working 5 bar jobs to make their flying debt repayments. If you do decide to go it alone and get an ATPL + type rating without a job at the end of it, finish your degree beforehand as it will give you more options should things not work out.
Good luck! If you want it badly enough like we did, it will always nag at you until you go for it.
Although a security deposit/bond is required, it is returned to you in full in monthly tax-free installments over 7 years. If you don't have the £84k bond lying around, BA have arranged a bespoke loan at 2.5% interest. In this case, your ATPL, type rating, accommodation, uniform, books etc will cost you only whatever interest it costs you to finance the security bond.
The new 34 point payscale is something you may have read about on pprune. I'm 28 and should make pp34 before retiring (six figure basic salary), but like most of my fellow successful FPP cadet applicants, a career with BA is absolutely my dream job and the money is only a small part of the appeal. Experienced pilots at legacy airlines might tell you that it might not be the career it used to be, and that's probably true, but it's still my dream and beats working for a living.
BA themselves are still unsure when the FPP recruitment will recommence. They had thousands of applications last summer and took 95 cadets on. The last of those commence training next Feb (2013), and will come on the line approximately 18 months after that.
My advice would be to spend the next 12 months or so making yourself as attractive as possible for the next round of sponsorship recruitment (finish your degree, most successful applicants in my intake are graduates and it also shows determination/staying power. Also put yourself in as many leadership and team situations as you can, do a bit of gliding/pleasure flying).
It has always been my dream to be an airline pilot, and I have been capable of doing it for a few years, but I wasn't prepared to borrow so much money (six figures with a type rating) for an integrated ATPL course with no guarantee of a job at the end. Pprune provides some sobering reading about pay to fly schemes and low hours, newly qualified pilots working 5 bar jobs to make their flying debt repayments. If you do decide to go it alone and get an ATPL + type rating without a job at the end of it, finish your degree beforehand as it will give you more options should things not work out.
Good luck! If you want it badly enough like we did, it will always nag at you until you go for it.
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