Type 31 Frigates
Discussion
Two possible designs for the planned Type 31 frigates have been revealed
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-unveils-potent...
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-unveils-potent...
I'm not keen on the stretched River Class. The Cutlass seems - from the pictures - to better suit the RNs needs. However if it comes down to cost Vs extra hulls then perhaps what amounts to a Batch 4 River class makes sense.
Good cheap GP frigates are what the RN has been lacking for ages. A ship for all those duties where an OPV is not enough and a tooled-up frigate or destroyer is too much.
My concerns are that little bits will be added to the design which will increase cost and result in something that's nearly as expensive as a type 26 but that's no where near as good.
Also for all the economy these have to be warships. By that I mean that they need to be able to properly defend themselves and be able to take damage. These are going to be single ship deployed most of the time and as such have the potential to be the first ship on scene if something kicks off. They also must be able to operate with the bigger carrier and amphibious groups. It's easy to look to the past and bring up the Falklands but the events of 1982 saw ships pulled from patrols like the West Indies guard ship and chucked into a pretty brutal conflict. I'd not be comfortable with the RN getting involved in such a situation with a mixture of top end warships and what amounts to enhanced OPVs.
I've kind of contradicted myself in this post, but I think it highlights the risks and dilemmas of bringing a much needed class of new warships into service.
Good cheap GP frigates are what the RN has been lacking for ages. A ship for all those duties where an OPV is not enough and a tooled-up frigate or destroyer is too much.
My concerns are that little bits will be added to the design which will increase cost and result in something that's nearly as expensive as a type 26 but that's no where near as good.
Also for all the economy these have to be warships. By that I mean that they need to be able to properly defend themselves and be able to take damage. These are going to be single ship deployed most of the time and as such have the potential to be the first ship on scene if something kicks off. They also must be able to operate with the bigger carrier and amphibious groups. It's easy to look to the past and bring up the Falklands but the events of 1982 saw ships pulled from patrols like the West Indies guard ship and chucked into a pretty brutal conflict. I'd not be comfortable with the RN getting involved in such a situation with a mixture of top end warships and what amounts to enhanced OPVs.
I've kind of contradicted myself in this post, but I think it highlights the risks and dilemmas of bringing a much needed class of new warships into service.
Edited by wildcat45 on Thursday 28th July 21:55
Right, im a tad confused.
The type 26 looks quite huge, it is larger then the "Zeven provincien" class ships the dutch navy has, which while called a frigate by the RDN is considered a destroyer, then why is the Type 26 a frigate? Is this down to the T26 mainly being aimed at ASW? (if im to believe wikipedia) and the Zeven Provincien class being more general purpose including AA and command roles?
The type 26 looks quite huge, it is larger then the "Zeven provincien" class ships the dutch navy has, which while called a frigate by the RDN is considered a destroyer, then why is the Type 26 a frigate? Is this down to the T26 mainly being aimed at ASW? (if im to believe wikipedia) and the Zeven Provincien class being more general purpose including AA and command roles?
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Interesting, considering hull-size wise the T26 is slightly smaller then the T45. (i always though a destroyer was size-wise between a cruiser and a frigate) So what the RN is looking for in the T31 is a smaller ASW vessel to complement the T26? Considering the River class OPV doesnt seem to have any missile based weaponry on board.Looking at the RDN, with the 4 destroyers and 2 Multipurpose frigates, it looks like we dont really have dedicated ASW surface ships, we do have 4 attack subs, not sure how those fit in.
Vitorio said:
Interesting, considering hull-size wise the T26 is slightly smaller then the T45. (i always though a destroyer was size-wise between a cruiser and a frigate) So what the RN is looking for in the T31 is a smaller ASW vessel to complement the T26? Considering the River class OPV doesnt seem to have any missile based weaponry on board.
Looking at the RDN, with the 4 destroyers and 2 Multipurpose frigates, it looks like we dont really have dedicated ASW surface ships, we do have 4 attack subs, not sure how those fit in.
Type 31 won't have the ASW sonar or low-noise design. It will be ASW in that it can hangar a Wildcat, and probably deck a Merlin.Looking at the RDN, with the 4 destroyers and 2 Multipurpose frigates, it looks like we dont really have dedicated ASW surface ships, we do have 4 attack subs, not sure how those fit in.
Evanivitch said:
Type 31 won't have the ASW sonar or low-noise design. It will be ASW in that it can hangar a Wildcat, and probably deck a Merlin.
So more low end general purpose frigate/high end corvette then? Without ASW Sonar it wont be able to operate independently in an ASW role right?SHutchinson said:
MartG said:
Are these the boats that live at HMS Calliope on the Tyne? Nanook said:
Vitorio said:
Right, im a tad confused.
The type 26 looks quite huge, it is larger then the "Zeven provincien" class ships the dutch navy has, which while called a frigate by the RDN is considered a destroyer, then why is the Type 26 a frigate? Is this down to the T26 mainly being aimed at ASW? (if im to believe wikipedia) and the Zeven Provincien class being more general purpose including AA and command roles?
The definitions are kinda open to interpretation these days, but we appear to call AAW stuff a Destroyer, and ASW stuff a Frigate.The type 26 looks quite huge, it is larger then the "Zeven provincien" class ships the dutch navy has, which while called a frigate by the RDN is considered a destroyer, then why is the Type 26 a frigate? Is this down to the T26 mainly being aimed at ASW? (if im to believe wikipedia) and the Zeven Provincien class being more general purpose including AA and command roles?
Although 26 is an all purpose frigate, more heavily armed than a T45.
Destroyers tend to be Anti-Aircraft ships, whilst Frigates are sub hunters. So the Type 42 was a destroyer, yet the larger Type 22's where frigates.
Vitorio said:
Evanivitch said:
Type 31 won't have the ASW sonar or low-noise design. It will be ASW in that it can hangar a Wildcat, and probably deck a Merlin.
So more low end general purpose frigate/high end corvette then? Without ASW Sonar it wont be able to operate independently in an ASW role right?Ideally they'd keep the same 76mm the Khareef class has, with two 30mm DS30M mounts for close in defence. The DS30M mount comes with an option for up to 7 LLM or Starstreak (anti-air) missles to be mounted on the same unit. Add in Sea-Ceptor so the ship has an area air defence role and some decent electronic warfare kit and its done.
wildcat45 said:
I'm not keen on the stretched River Class. The Cutlass seems - from the pictures - to better suit the RNs needs. However if it comes down to cost Vs extra hulls then perhaps what amounts to a Batch 4 River class makes sense.
Good cheap GP frigates are what the RN has been lacking for ages. A ship for all those duties where an OPV is not enough and a tooled-up frigate or destroyer is too much.
My concerns are that little bits will be added to the design which will increase cost and result in something that's nearly as expensive as a type 26 but that's no where near as good.
Also for all the economy these have to be warships. By that I mean that they need to be able to properly defend themselves and be able to take damage. These are going to be single ship deployed most of the time and as such have the potential to be the first ship on scene if something kicks off. They also must be able to operate with the bigger carrier and amphibious groups. It's easy to look to the past and bring up the Falklands but the events of 1982 saw ships pulled from patrols like the West Indies guard ship and chucked into a pretty brutal conflict. I'd not be comfortable with the RN getting involved in such a situation with a mixture of top end warships and what amounts to enhanced OPVs.
I've kind of contradicted myself in this post, but I think it highlights the risks and dilemmas of bringing a much needed class of new warships into service.
They have to be very wary of the "Homer's Car" situation.Good cheap GP frigates are what the RN has been lacking for ages. A ship for all those duties where an OPV is not enough and a tooled-up frigate or destroyer is too much.
My concerns are that little bits will be added to the design which will increase cost and result in something that's nearly as expensive as a type 26 but that's no where near as good.
Also for all the economy these have to be warships. By that I mean that they need to be able to properly defend themselves and be able to take damage. These are going to be single ship deployed most of the time and as such have the potential to be the first ship on scene if something kicks off. They also must be able to operate with the bigger carrier and amphibious groups. It's easy to look to the past and bring up the Falklands but the events of 1982 saw ships pulled from patrols like the West Indies guard ship and chucked into a pretty brutal conflict. I'd not be comfortable with the RN getting involved in such a situation with a mixture of top end warships and what amounts to enhanced OPVs.
I've kind of contradicted myself in this post, but I think it highlights the risks and dilemmas of bringing a much needed class of new warships into service.
Edited by wildcat45 on Thursday 28th July 21:55
With the long procurement lead time it's always hard to work out what we need 25 years down the line. However, with Brexit there is a definite need for ships of the River class for fisheries protection and other EEZ enforcement duties. They're also more or less exactly what we need to be fishing migrants out of the Mediterranean, and it seems a bit silly to divert a type 45 to do that sort of job.
I agree that this sort of ship shouldn't go to a shooting war, but proper navies do tend to have ships that don't go to shooting wars.
wildcat45 said:
My concerns are that little bits will be added to the design which will increase cost and result in something that's nearly as expensive as a type 26 but that's no where near as good.
What would be the result of taking a T26 and scrapping/toning down some bits? Like only give it half the SAM/Harpoon Batteries, take out the fancy sonar, halve the helicopter support facilities and fill up some of the remaining space with general purpose bays (side bay for launching dingies?) to aid in stuff like drug patrol, refugee fishing etc..I'd think that using the same hulls and machinery for 90% of the ship would make production, maintenance and training all easier/cheaper, yet removing the more advanced capabilities might lower the price enough.
Vitorio said:
I'd think that using the same hulls and machinery for 90% of the ship would make production, maintenance and training all easier/cheaper, yet removing the more advanced capabilities might lower the price enough.
Most of the cost of producing a small run warship is in designing it. If you want down the road of a decontented T26 you'd probably find you would only save a tiny proportion of the cost, meaning it would have been better to just have more T26s.MartG said:
Archer Class ? They certainly are - HMS Trumpeter and Explorer seen last weekend at Sunderland Airshow
And compared to HMS Blyth minehunter ( which isn't very big either )
These aren't Offshore Patrol Vessels or OPVs. These are RNR training boats. Based I seem to recall on a port security vessel design. The things we are talking about are much bigger.And compared to HMS Blyth minehunter ( which isn't very big either )
Think of these vessels as a civvy police worker. An OPV as a beat Bobby with a side handle baton and a can of CS spray and the new ships we are taking about as an armed response officer - still not a soldier in full kit but enough to deal with some prat waving a pistol about.
Getting this right is very hard. It's easy to over spec a ship and also easy to order the wrong type of ship. A few years ago there were a class of corvettes - not unlike the ones the RN is considering - that came on the market after a cancelled order. They were new, and British built. The RN could have had them for a song but despite being grey and carrying British missile systems, they would have been pretty poor in RN service. They were specified for work in warm climates, the accommodation was different and I think there were other things that went against them. Think if it like an American car built for the domestic market. It would need Europeanized suspension, UK compliant lights etc etc to be of any use here.
Vitorio said:
What would be the result of taking a T26 and scrapping/toning down some bits? Like only give it half the SAM/Harpoon Batteries, take out the fancy sonar, halve the helicopter support facilities and fill up some of the remaining space with general purpose bays (side bay for launching dingies?) to aid in stuff like drug patrol, refugee fishing etc..
I'd think that using the same hulls and machinery for 90% of the ship would make production, maintenance and training all easier/cheaper, yet removing the more advanced capabilities might lower the price enough.
That idea has been considered in the past and to a certain extent it happens already. I'd think that using the same hulls and machinery for 90% of the ship would make production, maintenance and training all easier/cheaper, yet removing the more advanced capabilities might lower the price enough.
For example not all Tyoe 23 frigates have towed array sonars fitted. That no secret by the way. There is quite a lot of Fitted For rather than Fitted With going on.
While that makes for some savings - a common hull design for example, there are still the unavoidable costs associated with a bigger ship - the engine room crew will be the same no matter what weapons are installed for example. The armed-up ship and the lightly armed ship will drink the same amount of fuel. Also, sometimes smaller is better. A corvette or OPV will be happier in coastal waters than something built to trawl the deep North Atlantic for nuclear subs.
In an ideal world I would like to see a three-teir Royal Navy. Gold plated expensive warships, then a class of cheaper GP frigates as force multipliers and a class of six OPVs (perhaps civvy manned?) for fisheries EEZ counter narcitucs, border force, coastguard type duties.
davepoth said:
Most of the cost of producing a small run warship is in designing it. If you want down the road of a decontented T26 you'd probably find you would only save a tiny proportion of the cost, meaning it would have been better to just have more T26s.
If most of the cost is R&D, then why not just build more T26s right off the bat?Nanook said:
What, like the mission bay the T26 has for launching boats and storing containers with other equipment in?
Heh, i figured it would have something like that, i was trying to think of cheap stuff to fill the opened up hullspace with mostlyGassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff