Discussion
Dr JonboyG said:
No, it cannot be called bourbon. It's charcoal filtered, which adds color. Bourbon has to be: made in America; 51% corn; aged in new white oak barrels; cannot be artificially flavored. JD fails on the last.
OP: if you want to spend a lot, Pappy Van Winkle 20 year is probably the best bourbon on the planet. Is about $100 a bottle here in the US, I expect it would be significantly more in the UK with import duty and tax though. More reasonable everyday drinking bourbons I'd recommend are Woodford Reserve and Buffalo Trace.
Trust me, it could be called bourbon if they wanted it to. The regulators have no issue with the charcoal filtering - there are so many ageing techniques in play these days (e.g. oak staves in the barrels as used by Makers Mark 46) its no longer a big thing. However, Tennessee origin is such a part of their heritage and brand they would be daft to change the description.OP: if you want to spend a lot, Pappy Van Winkle 20 year is probably the best bourbon on the planet. Is about $100 a bottle here in the US, I expect it would be significantly more in the UK with import duty and tax though. More reasonable everyday drinking bourbons I'd recommend are Woodford Reserve and Buffalo Trace.
Rutter said:
Sounds like some great choices, 3 different distilleries too you'll have to let us know your thoughts once they arrive.
Prices over here are silly, we tend to pay a similar amount or more in £ as they do in $.
Does your daughter visit anywhere in particular, I know there are some big chains like Binnys and the party store that will have a vast selection but it depends where she goes I guess, i'm sure there will be independents all over that will stock it though.
Pleased you reminded me about Binnys, found their site ages back, but promptly forgot their name and could not find them again! Sadly, they seem to be Illinois based , my daughter tends to east coast, mainly NY, on odd occasion Boston. We shall see,I'll quiz her, perhaps a stateside work acquaintance can help us out.Prices over here are silly, we tend to pay a similar amount or more in £ as they do in $.
Does your daughter visit anywhere in particular, I know there are some big chains like Binnys and the party store that will have a vast selection but it depends where she goes I guess, i'm sure there will be independents all over that will stock it though.
Yeah, decided on a spread, avoid the heavily marketed stuff, may cost me a bit more, but live and learn.Do like the high strengths as well, always water if too overpowering. No specialist bars anywhere near me I can try any of this stuff, so paying to learn I suppose. Having said that, a good idea to ensure not being robbed in doing so, its the same with scotch, some great stuff out there, some big pisstakes as well, so one step at a time. looking forward to it!
Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Tuesday 14th August 18:30
Dr JonboyG said:
OP: if you want to spend a lot, Pappy Van Winkle 20 year is probably the best bourbon on the planet. Is about $100 a bottle here in the US, I expect it would be significantly more in the UK with import duty and tax though. More reasonable everyday drinking bourbons I'd recommend are Woodford Reserve and Buffalo Trace.
No mate, I don't really want to spend a lot. That means *nothing* over £60. What I want to do , is find good bourbon, rye even? That I like , gives a good return for buck, and shuts me up! Just Like Lagavulin, Laphroaig cask , and Springbank has done with scotch
Wadeski said:
Trust me, it could be called bourbon if they wanted it to. The regulators have no issue with the charcoal filtering - there are so many ageing techniques in play these days (e.g. oak staves in the barrels as used by Makers Mark 46) its no longer a big thing. However, Tennessee origin is such a part of their heritage and brand they would be daft to change the description.
Well, I was all set to flame you but it seems technically JD could pass muster as a blended bourbon, so thanks for that knowledge bomb.I will tell you that, having spent about five years living in Kentucky and going on quite a few distillery tours, at just about every one they would point out that JD != bourbon, and that includes the tour at Woodford which is owned by the same company that makes JD. Woodford's distillery is a great day out for anyone that's in the area, incidentally. It was one of the few things that made living in that state not completely boring.
Cheese Mechanic said:
No mate, I don't really want to spend a lot. That means *nothing* over £60. What I want to do , is find good bourbon, rye even? That I like , gives a good return for buck, and shuts me up!
Just Like Lagavulin, Laphroaig cask , and Springbank has done with scotch
In that case Buffalo Trace or Woodford. Really smooth, great caramel notes.Just Like Lagavulin, Laphroaig cask , and Springbank has done with scotch
To be a bourbon the produce must be:
made from a grain mixture that is at least 51% corn;
aged in new, charred-oak barrels;
distilled to no more than 160 (U.S.) proof (80% alcohol by volume);
entered into the barrel for aging at no more than 125 proof (62.5% alcohol by volume);
be bottled (like other whiskeys) at 80 proof or more (40% alcohol by volume).
made from a grain mixture that is at least 51% corn;
aged in new, charred-oak barrels;
distilled to no more than 160 (U.S.) proof (80% alcohol by volume);
entered into the barrel for aging at no more than 125 proof (62.5% alcohol by volume);
be bottled (like other whiskeys) at 80 proof or more (40% alcohol by volume).
Indeed. although its amazing how many people will tell you it has to come from Kentucky.
tonight, I partook in a particularly lovely thing, Parkers Heritage Reserve Cognac finish.
its a Heaven Hill product, and like so many they make, rather lovely.
http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku=1078094
and, if i were feeling critical, like so many they make, not THAT differentiated from the rather excellent entry-level bourbons they sell.
still, makes up for a bloody long day in the office.
tonight, I partook in a particularly lovely thing, Parkers Heritage Reserve Cognac finish.
its a Heaven Hill product, and like so many they make, rather lovely.
http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku=1078094
and, if i were feeling critical, like so many they make, not THAT differentiated from the rather excellent entry-level bourbons they sell.
still, makes up for a bloody long day in the office.
Just thought I'd throw in my few cents...
I've recently been 'experimenting' with a view to formulate my favorite Manhatten recipe.
The Bourbons I've found to be good and not too expensive (after all they're going in a cocktail) is Knob Hill and Buffalo Trace and the latter is my current favorite.
I was in San Francisco recently and went to a great seafood restaurant called 'Farallon' where I had the best Manhattens of the trip. The waiter told me it was made with a special Bourbon but, naturally, I couldn't remember what it was, so if anyone knows please tell!
I've recently been 'experimenting' with a view to formulate my favorite Manhatten recipe.
The Bourbons I've found to be good and not too expensive (after all they're going in a cocktail) is Knob Hill and Buffalo Trace and the latter is my current favorite.
I was in San Francisco recently and went to a great seafood restaurant called 'Farallon' where I had the best Manhattens of the trip. The waiter told me it was made with a special Bourbon but, naturally, I couldn't remember what it was, so if anyone knows please tell!
If your playing with Manhattans, you must try:
- a Rye whiskey (e.g. Sazerac Rye)
- using a fruit-flavoured bitters e.g. peach, cherry, chocolate etc. Bitter Truth, Bittermens, Fee Brothers etc all do them
- Monkey Shoulder! its still my favourite "manhattan". Although technically its a Rob Roy, the sweetness makes it very moreish. Use orange bitters and sweet vermouth.
- a Rye whiskey (e.g. Sazerac Rye)
- using a fruit-flavoured bitters e.g. peach, cherry, chocolate etc. Bitter Truth, Bittermens, Fee Brothers etc all do them
- Monkey Shoulder! its still my favourite "manhattan". Although technically its a Rob Roy, the sweetness makes it very moreish. Use orange bitters and sweet vermouth.
Wadeski said:
If your playing with Manhattans, you must try:
- a Rye whiskey (e.g. Sazerac Rye)
- using a fruit-flavoured bitters e.g. peach, cherry, chocolate etc. Bitter Truth, Bittermens, Fee Brothers etc all do them
- Monkey Shoulder! its still my favourite "manhattan". Although technically its a Rob Roy, the sweetness makes it very moreish. Use orange bitters and sweet vermouth.
I'm ahead of you with the bitters - been using Fee Bros. orange bitters and tried a couple of different vermouths. Favoring Vya at the moment. Will look up Sazerac and do a bit more 'research & development ' at the weekend (hic!)- a Rye whiskey (e.g. Sazerac Rye)
- using a fruit-flavoured bitters e.g. peach, cherry, chocolate etc. Bitter Truth, Bittermens, Fee Brothers etc all do them
- Monkey Shoulder! its still my favourite "manhattan". Although technically its a Rob Roy, the sweetness makes it very moreish. Use orange bitters and sweet vermouth.
Edited by FurtiveFreddy on Wednesday 22 August 16:39
Here we go, this is what turned up!
Heck, not only the previously mentioned 3 bourbons, but a bottle of Jim Beam Rye hurled itself into the basket
It seems to be very well thought of, one reviewer noted it as being the "only thing of any worth with that name on". We
shall see.
See also, that on the flanks that Flor De Cana 7 yr Nicaraguan rum insisted on coming along and was joined by
a bottle of the superb Longrow 14.
Cannot wait to try some of these, maybe another week though, sadly.
Meanwhile , I'll reflect in looking at this photo , on just how easy it is to blow £200+ on a drink!
Heck, not only the previously mentioned 3 bourbons, but a bottle of Jim Beam Rye hurled itself into the basket
It seems to be very well thought of, one reviewer noted it as being the "only thing of any worth with that name on". We
shall see.
See also, that on the flanks that Flor De Cana 7 yr Nicaraguan rum insisted on coming along and was joined by
a bottle of the superb Longrow 14.
Cannot wait to try some of these, maybe another week though, sadly.
Meanwhile , I'll reflect in looking at this photo , on just how easy it is to blow £200+ on a drink!
Just thought I'd follow up on this.
Owing to a couple of days of relatively chilly weather in my neck of the woods, it made me think "whisk(e)y "
So I opened and had 2 or 3 doubles of the Four Roses Small batch bourbon.
Well, not short of presence, thats for sure. Mainly, Vanilla, Spice and Oak in the flavours. Some other notes in there, but beyond my descriptive powers.
Basically, monaural, not what you would term complex at all. Some heat, but flavoursome, and smooth. Water, does not seem to bring out anything new, just dilutes the already noted flavours.
So, Did I enjoy it? Yes. How do I see it with other whisk(e)y's? Perhaps in the same league as some of our better home grown blends and superior to some of our more basic ones, Grouse, Grants, Teachers even.
Am I likely to buy it again? Whilst, I'd have no problem in doing so, it's unlikely. At £25 , it puts it in similar ground to discounted HP12 (as example) which, to be honest, beats the pants off of Four Roses when it comes to complexity and breadth of flavours. Thats the rub unfortunately, the price. This bourbon should be in the £16 to £20 bracket, at that it would make a very good buy.
So to summarise, a good pleasant experience, far more to applaud than decry, good solid stuff. How should the reader see this? Well, if you fancy the odd whisky or Bourbon, and you have not tried this particualr one , and even if you don't buy it again, I'd recomend giving it a try, its very unlikely you'll feel it a poor experience, and every possibility you may make a new friend.
Owing to a couple of days of relatively chilly weather in my neck of the woods, it made me think "whisk(e)y "
So I opened and had 2 or 3 doubles of the Four Roses Small batch bourbon.
Well, not short of presence, thats for sure. Mainly, Vanilla, Spice and Oak in the flavours. Some other notes in there, but beyond my descriptive powers.
Basically, monaural, not what you would term complex at all. Some heat, but flavoursome, and smooth. Water, does not seem to bring out anything new, just dilutes the already noted flavours.
So, Did I enjoy it? Yes. How do I see it with other whisk(e)y's? Perhaps in the same league as some of our better home grown blends and superior to some of our more basic ones, Grouse, Grants, Teachers even.
Am I likely to buy it again? Whilst, I'd have no problem in doing so, it's unlikely. At £25 , it puts it in similar ground to discounted HP12 (as example) which, to be honest, beats the pants off of Four Roses when it comes to complexity and breadth of flavours. Thats the rub unfortunately, the price. This bourbon should be in the £16 to £20 bracket, at that it would make a very good buy.
So to summarise, a good pleasant experience, far more to applaud than decry, good solid stuff. How should the reader see this? Well, if you fancy the odd whisky or Bourbon, and you have not tried this particualr one , and even if you don't buy it again, I'd recomend giving it a try, its very unlikely you'll feel it a poor experience, and every possibility you may make a new friend.
Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Monday 3rd September 13:25
I have a sweet tooth, and bourbon can be sweet. Try Woodford Reserve. You can get it in most big supermarkets for between £25 and £30. You may also like a Manhattan too. (Bourbon, red vermouth, cherries and bitters to taste). Yes, it's a cocktail but think Mad Men, not umbrellas and novelty glasses!
At last, my take on Old Grand Dad 114.
Well, this certainly announces itself straightaway. It just grabs the nose and sets the poor old bugle well alight, a LOT of heat.
I had to tone down my efforts, afraid I did not like the nose at all, a sort of a smelling salts experience, different smells , similar effect.
A similar result in the mouth, way too much heat, yes it is cask strength , but still too aggressive.
So, water! Now we are talking. Oak, vanilla , spicy too....not bad at all. I found around 10 to 15 mill of water in a 50 mill measure just about right. It
sees off the heat, but the flavours remain, still big and enjoyable. The finish is quite long, more Oak and other flavours beyond my powers of description.
So, not bad at all , what I first thought was going to be a disaster ended up quite enjoyable. However, I do have a preference for the Four Roses small batch, just as flavoursome , but no worries with water , plus a tenner a bottle less.
I'd still reckon its a good idea to try , if you see it in a bar , give it a go, don't forget about the water option though!
Well, this certainly announces itself straightaway. It just grabs the nose and sets the poor old bugle well alight, a LOT of heat.
I had to tone down my efforts, afraid I did not like the nose at all, a sort of a smelling salts experience, different smells , similar effect.
A similar result in the mouth, way too much heat, yes it is cask strength , but still too aggressive.
So, water! Now we are talking. Oak, vanilla , spicy too....not bad at all. I found around 10 to 15 mill of water in a 50 mill measure just about right. It
sees off the heat, but the flavours remain, still big and enjoyable. The finish is quite long, more Oak and other flavours beyond my powers of description.
So, not bad at all , what I first thought was going to be a disaster ended up quite enjoyable. However, I do have a preference for the Four Roses small batch, just as flavoursome , but no worries with water , plus a tenner a bottle less.
I'd still reckon its a good idea to try , if you see it in a bar , give it a go, don't forget about the water option though!
Age does not always make a good whisky / bourbon. Some drams are better younger.
Even comparing two old whiskies once (36 vs 42) the younger was better as the other had been in the cask for too long - and was being re-casked to give some life back (try ! and rescue it).
Looking at a bourbon - and as the new Whisky Bible is out. Take the 'standard' Sazerac and the 18yo. Taste side by side and you will rob the person standing next to you to ensure you buy the 18yo. Double the budget (and triple the price) - but worth every pound.
Turning to whisky - only tried Highland Park 18yo for the first time recently (where have I been hiding) - similar story - wow. Save all the 12yo and turn it to something on a different level.
Even comparing two old whiskies once (36 vs 42) the younger was better as the other had been in the cask for too long - and was being re-casked to give some life back (try ! and rescue it).
Looking at a bourbon - and as the new Whisky Bible is out. Take the 'standard' Sazerac and the 18yo. Taste side by side and you will rob the person standing next to you to ensure you buy the 18yo. Double the budget (and triple the price) - but worth every pound.
Turning to whisky - only tried Highland Park 18yo for the first time recently (where have I been hiding) - similar story - wow. Save all the 12yo and turn it to something on a different level.
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