What Proper 4x4 for mud/snow/ICE?

[sidekickdmr]

techguyone said:

I'll only say 5 door Grand Vitara one last time, is there a problem 'proper' 4 wheel drive, awesome off road ability, good ground clearance, price is right, size is right, reliability is 1,000 times better than any land rover product.

What's the issue?

Sorry you are right I have ignored this suggestion a few times.

I keep looking at them, and dont get me wrong, none of the cars im looking at are going to win any beauty contests, but I just couldnt live with the looks of one, sorry

[300bhp/ton]

CaptainSlow said:

I've had a number of Subarus so I do have a clue. You can look up the differences yourself.

But I'm asking you. And your refusal is most amusing and normally indicative of someone who does not know, but not man enough to back down.

CaptainSlow said:

As for the repairs are pretty common for an car except the new engine. Not many N/A Subarus have needed a new engine, indeed not many of the 2.0 turbos have either.

You are talking utter bks.

There is an entire industry in the UK rebuilding Subaru engines. If it was uncommon, such an industry simply wouldn't exist.

If it was rare, you wouldn't get places like this:
http://www.apiimpreza.com/

Making claims like this:

API said:

more and more Imprezas and Legacies came to API with engine problems. Ranging from rattly hydraulic tappets to major failures. By applying the engineering expertise mentioned earlier, API has been able to set a standard for Subaru engine rebuilding

CaptainSlow said:

Subaru didn't score highly on the JD Power surveys for nothing. Claiming that Landies are more reliable than Subarus is laughable.

Edited by CaptainSlow on Tuesday 2nd August 11:54

I haven't claimed anything, so wind your neck in. But at least I'm speaking from a position of experience and common sense.

[300bhp/ton]

sidekickdmr said:

Off to look at a freelander tonight!

How about the Shogun Pinin? Looks to be a decent smaller 5 door 4x4, in the pics I think I can see a 4wd selector/high/low knob?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...

The Pinin's have a smallish boot. Quite a tiny vehicle, despite the styling.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they are 2wd on the road, with just 4wd High and 4wd Low and not TCS or locking diffs.

And I think, but not certain they are IFS and live rear.


This means they will be perfectly capable on the terrain you are talking about. But will not be the last word in ability. With open diffs it won't have the traction of a TCS equipped 4x4 or one with axle lockers/LSD's.

And as mentioned earlier, I suspect on road you'll have to run in 2wd unless the road is completely snow covered. And if it is 2wd for road use, then it will require the bod behind the wheel to know when to stop and select 4wd or 4wd low. This isn't a bad thing, but puts more onus on you and relies on you knowing the conditions and vehicles capabilities more so.

[300bhp/ton]

Op,

If you imagine a road like this. Fairly common in the UK when we get snow.




Slush, but plenty of tarmac in places. And you may run into deeper snow/slush or even completely clear tarmac at any moment.


The Pinin, Vitara, some Jeeps and many Jap trucks (as well as a Jimny, Series Land Rover and others).

You'd have to choose carefully if you used 4wd or 2wd. At a junction or a round about, anywhere that you might use some steering lock. If tarmac is showing, you have the potential to break a part of the transmission with these vehicles, if it's 4wd. Because the front and rear wheels will not be able to spin at different speeds to each other.


But of course, running such a vehicle in 2wd could make it worse in these conditions than a FWD hatchback.




A Freelander, Defender, Range Rover, Discovery, Subaru's, some Cherokee's and Grand Cherokees and a few Jap trucks will not have an issue in these conditions, as you can just run them in their normal road mode. And you will have 4wd with them.



It really comes down to how proactive you think you'd be, your own confidence in your driving ability and to a degree if you are prepared to make the wrong call on which drive mode to use.


If the Pinin appeals. I'd actually say consider a Mk1 Toyota Rav 4. They have a centre differential like a Defender. So are 4wd all the time on the road. They aren't as roughfty toughty off road as the Shogun maybe and with less off road capable suspension. But for the snow and a muddy track they would be more than up to the task.



For your use my list would be:


-Freelander with TCS
-Mk1 Rav4
-Forrester
-Discovery 1/2
-Jeep Cherokee XJ 4.0 (the 4.0 has the centre diff, the 2.5 petrol and diesel don't)
-Jeep Grand Cherokee (ZJ/WJ, but again check for the centre diff, as I'm not sure all of them have it)



Something like an X-Trail is ok too, but far more on road than the above.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 2nd August 15:04

[CaptainSlow]

300bhp/ton said:

But I'm asking you. And your refusal is most amusing and normally indicative of someone who does not know, but not man enough to back down.

You can use Google, I'm sure you'll find a more comprehensive list of differences than I can give off the top of my head. Just for starters though; different ratios, selectable high/low transfer, auto hill hold (2.0 only not 1.6), different rear diff. Then there's not having the issue of turbo boost coming on etc.

300bhp/ton said:

You are talking utter bks.

There is an entire industry in the UK rebuilding Subaru engines. If it was uncommon, such an industry simply wouldn't exist.

If it was rare, you wouldn't get places like this:
http://www.apiimpreza.com/

Well done, you've found a garage that specialises in a particular manufacturer and called it an industry. I suspect there are just as many if not more garages that specialise in rebuilding Landrovers, that's an industry. Also don't be surprised that many owners tend to over boost the engines and they go pop, however, as per my original answer I'm talking about the N/A models.

300bhp/ton said:

I haven't claimed anything, so wind your neck in. But at least I'm speaking from a position of experience and common sense.

In fairness, at least you're not suggesting some yank tank or posting your favourite image of the chassis rigidity of the MGF this time.

[Foliage]

Lada Niva

[300bhp/ton]

Foliage said:

Lada Niva

Good vehicles. Spares a little hard to find. And vehicles themselves quite rare these days.

But hugely capable off road. Not so dissimilar to a Vitara drivetrain and layout. But for UK snow use would suffer the same 2wd road driving issues.

[CaptainSlow]

Foliage said:

Lada Niva

Sadly along with the Fourtrak quite few and far between.

Unless you buy new, http://www.markkey.co.uk/#

[Impasse]

The Hyundai Tucson is worth a cursory look if you can get past the badge.

[GravelBen]

With the Vitaras - older ones do have a simple transfer case as 300 says, newer Grand Vitaras (post-2005 I think) have a multi-select type system with switchable centre difflock and low range.

[Steve_F]

sidekickdmr said:

techguyone said:

I'll only say 5 door Grand Vitara one last time, is there a problem 'proper' 4 wheel drive, awesome off road ability, good ground clearance, price is right, size is right, reliability is 1,000 times better than any land rover product.

What's the issue?

Sorry you are right I have ignored this suggestion a few times.

I keep looking at them, and dont get me wrong, none of the cars im looking at are going to win any beauty contests, but I just couldnt live with the looks of one, sorry

Sitting on a lunch break on an offroading day we watched a prep'd Defender tackle a very interesting line that it just make it up. A prep'd Disco followed it and had to back down (still not sure how he didn't roll it). The guy sitting at the end of the line fires up his standard Vitara and heads up the same hill, we all had a wee laugh at him trying before he drove straight up it. Technique was much better than the disco as it never bounced through a bomb hole but it had some very experienced offroaders wondering what the drive set up was on that age of Vitara (and me a complete rookie in complete awe at it getting up there and his guts to risk it in front of everyone)!!

I did have to tow him out of very deep ruts at one point of the day.

[SlimJim16v]

Mk1 RAV4 good suggestion. Cheap, reliable and good on road and acceptable off road. The centre diff is also lockable. The Mk2 has a similar set up (+traction I think) and obviously will be newer.

Agree that something full time 4x4 is best, with at least a slip limiting or locking centre diff. I didn't have any problems with my Mk1 Vitara though. It can switch between 2H and 4H on the move easily and I often kept it in 2wd so I could get the back out.

[Freds]

Another Forester vote here, we're in the Yorkshire Dales and down the years have had incredible amounts of snow, I've never been stuck with winter tyres on, the later ones have almost 9 inches of ground clearance, earlier models have slightly less but are incredibly capable. We've had circa 15 Subarus down the years without issue.

[seefarr]

Tyres are everything. 4x4 helps you move off but doesn't help you stop in the snow. I've driven in Canada (F-150) and Japan (Honda Stepwgn) winters and it's a doddle with proper tyres and murderous without:

Canada:


Japan:

[TrickyTrevM5]

My tuppence worth.....

If you need a car for these conditions, ask someone who lives with these conditions day in and day out - like a farmer.

you wont be too far from a Daihatsu FourTrek when you do though.

Get a late one and they dont look to bad either. tough as boots. Nearly bought one myself a couple of years ago but was shouted down by the boss - she said it only snows every 5 years in hertfordshire.

good luck

[patmahe]

Wasn't the Hyundai Terracan meant to be quite a capable off roader if a little rough around the edges. You'd probably get two for your budget.

Disclaimer: I have no first hand experience of these vehicles and am purely going by something I read once upon a time, so do your research.

[tomv1to]

At the risk of getting stuff thrown at me what's wrong with the Panda 4x4?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...

Panda Cross gives a bit more ground clearance but I'm not sure there's one in the price range.

[Uncle John]

Honda CRV's mk2 are good and in budget and mid sized, very reliable.

Seriously, got me up and down a steep closed off icy road a few years back.

I went for it on a wing and a prayer but it made it, on Bridgestone all seasons.

Freelander 2 very good. Discovery 3 very good.

Can't yet report on the Yeti I currently have.

Do check out the CRV though. I'd have one again if need be.

[yenkcoh]

Ok here goes , in snow ... Light is good .... Panda but boot is tiny , forester is awesome the early ones look cool and plenty of imports around , had a Shogun 2.8td , awesome off road , cheap parts , well built ... Whilst not the best looking beast cheap and reliable Nissan terrano ....

[techguyone]

I've got a mk2 CRV, its a nice vehicle but there's no real 4x4 stuff on it, just a viscous diff that switches to 4wd on wheel slip, no low range, no diff lock, I'm not even sure the 4x4 works in reverse, there's more... robust 4x4 options.
Great in any other regard, but definitely a soft roader or 'light' use only off road.