No wheels off...
Discussion
On the whole I think this is a good rule change, as the current rule allows corner cutting as long as a wheel stays within the white line which we see the touring cars doing at every circuit they go to.
The wording of the new rule could certainly be better but the intention of the rule is to prevent drivers from using anything other than the tarmac and the kerbs, which I completely agree with. The grass, grasscrete, access roads etc are not part of the track and shouldn't be used as such to gain an advantage.
Under the new rule, no one is going to receive a penalty for a single error and if you're consistently running off the circuit by accident then you deserve the penalty.
The wording of the new rule could certainly be better but the intention of the rule is to prevent drivers from using anything other than the tarmac and the kerbs, which I completely agree with. The grass, grasscrete, access roads etc are not part of the track and shouldn't be used as such to gain an advantage.
Under the new rule, no one is going to receive a penalty for a single error and if you're consistently running off the circuit by accident then you deserve the penalty.
can't agree with that.
if that was the intention, why not say 1 wheel off is OK, (as opposed to 2) that would then cover the 'inadvertent moment' situations as opposed to blatantly running half off the cct?
That said, as this is different to FIA and everybody else, I really think it's a bad idea, and that's before you consider the questionable wording (that alone is going to cause issues).
I bet you if this goes forward, club racers get shafted and the 'promoted' stuff get's a blind eye turned.
if that was the intention, why not say 1 wheel off is OK, (as opposed to 2) that would then cover the 'inadvertent moment' situations as opposed to blatantly running half off the cct?
That said, as this is different to FIA and everybody else, I really think it's a bad idea, and that's before you consider the questionable wording (that alone is going to cause issues).
I bet you if this goes forward, club racers get shafted and the 'promoted' stuff get's a blind eye turned.
1 wheel off isn't okay. If your wheels are off the circuit then you're cheating.
The system of a warning first and then penalty only after repeated transgressions is in place to allow for the odd mistake, so that argument is redundant.
The problem with the new rule is that there is no definition of 'kerb' because they vary so much from circuit to circuit so it allows some scope for interpretation as to what actually constitutes the 'circuit', but I think that everyone knows what the intention is.
The system of a warning first and then penalty only after repeated transgressions is in place to allow for the odd mistake, so that argument is redundant.
The problem with the new rule is that there is no definition of 'kerb' because they vary so much from circuit to circuit so it allows some scope for interpretation as to what actually constitutes the 'circuit', but I think that everyone knows what the intention is.
I was referring to the new rules under which kerbs are considered part of the track, where if you've got a wheel 'off' then you'd be on the grass.
I think some people are making a fuss over nothing and that the new rule will make very little difference. It's clear the bits that are meant to be used under the current rule are the tarmac between the white lines and the kerbs. Now the new rule reflects that.
I think some people are making a fuss over nothing and that the new rule will make very little difference. It's clear the bits that are meant to be used under the current rule are the tarmac between the white lines and the kerbs. Now the new rule reflects that.
clubracing said:
I was referring to the new rules under which kerbs are considered part of the track, where if you've got a wheel 'off' then you'd be on the grass.
I think some people are making a fuss over nothing and that the new rule will make very little difference. It's clear the bits that are meant to be used under the current rule are the tarmac between the white lines and the kerbs. Now the new rule reflects that.
two points...I think some people are making a fuss over nothing and that the new rule will make very little difference. It's clear the bits that are meant to be used under the current rule are the tarmac between the white lines and the kerbs. Now the new rule reflects that.
1) under these new rules,you can go off the cct without touching the grass
2) do you actually race? if you do, how can you possibly say it makes little difference?
Yes, you can go off the circuit without being on the grass. Rather than write a vast list of all the different things you could end up on that aren't part of the circuit and therefore shouldn't be used, I just wrote grass.
Yes I do race and do think the new rule makes little difference, the track limits have been redefined that's all. There are some corners which will now be slightly slower but everyone in the UK will be racing to the same rule.
I'm not saying it's a rule change that I would have implemented but I'm not going to start petition about it either as others in this thread have talked about.
Yes I do race and do think the new rule makes little difference, the track limits have been redefined that's all. There are some corners which will now be slightly slower but everyone in the UK will be racing to the same rule.
I'm not saying it's a rule change that I would have implemented but I'm not going to start petition about it either as others in this thread have talked about.
The MSA could dictate the rule was you had to drive down the middle of the track all day long, but without it being policed and enforced consistently this is where it falls down. This is a big point with the current rules and won't go away with the new rules, if everyone else on track is doing it and getting away with it, you also have to do it!
Paddock for instance. Under the new rule I'll be deemed to have left the track if I put a wheel over the edge of the painted curb. How am I supposed to know I've done that in a big GT car like a Ginetta?
If it was the concrete edge as opposed to the painted curb this wouldn't be a problem. But I can't feel the edge of that paint in my car.
If it was the concrete edge as opposed to the painted curb this wouldn't be a problem. But I can't feel the edge of that paint in my car.
Time will of course tell how it works out. I don't mind driving the track in a race so you can't go over the line (ignoring the daftness with curbs at the moment), but I don't like where the implementation of the rule takes us.
To effectively and fairly police it (as has been described above), you will need a lot of eagle eyed people who have to be able to spot the occurrences. So it's a huge focus on transgression spotting which I think just reflects our penal law driven world. If in doubt make a law about it.
It's just like driving in London. All the rules and laws are individually ok, but I don't expect to make a drive into london without getting some kind of penalty.
That's what's happening with this new daft rule. Lots of observers needed to look for any slight slip.
And to achieve what? It doesn't make the racing more fun, more fair, more interesting, cheaper, better, fairer, cleverer. No benefit at all.
Bert
To effectively and fairly police it (as has been described above), you will need a lot of eagle eyed people who have to be able to spot the occurrences. So it's a huge focus on transgression spotting which I think just reflects our penal law driven world. If in doubt make a law about it.
It's just like driving in London. All the rules and laws are individually ok, but I don't expect to make a drive into london without getting some kind of penalty.
That's what's happening with this new daft rule. Lots of observers needed to look for any slight slip.
And to achieve what? It doesn't make the racing more fun, more fair, more interesting, cheaper, better, fairer, cleverer. No benefit at all.
Bert
Ok then what about the bit where the kerb ends after the end of a corner? Drop over the end of that and under the new rules it would be deemed a wheel or wheels off despite continuing on line. I am talking here about the bit that is often a smaller bit of unpainted concrete and/or dirt etc. at the trailing end of kerbs. In many cases the dirt here gets torn up, the GTs from Zandvort are on the telly at the moment and the bit at the end of almost every exit kerb is torn up. So if we are now saying one can't drive on that bit it means surely not using much of the kerbing in many cases at all but spotting a car using this bit off the end of a kerb is surely going to be even more impractical then one wheel off over a white line where there isn't a kerb.
Bertbert you talk a lot of sense. This is exactly why I feel sick to the core. We do live in a world where we are constantly in danger of being penalised for something. For instance there is no such thing as an accident anymore! I just hoped that racing would remain shielded from this trend towards legislating anything and everything.
That's just got me thinking. How long before we end up having to pay for damage to other cars in racing incidents/accidents
That's just got me thinking. How long before we end up having to pay for damage to other cars in racing incidents/accidents
said:
if we want to make a protest I can't see a voluntary ban on testing working - there are too many people looking for an advantage to make that work. But... if we want to do a 'civil disobedience' thing and remind the MSA to listen to its customers, may be we could all agree not to apply for our 2014 licences until February 1st. Let's see how the MSA manage with no licensing income for a couple of months....?
Let's see how you cope without a licence at your first event because the MSA have a backlog on licence applications and yours doesn't get processed in time. said:
Exactly. This was pointed out a couple or 3 pages back but is easy to forget. In some cases the new rules may allow one to drive wider for the simple reason that the kerbs are outside of the white lines and under the old easy to understand rules it was all about keeping some of the car inside those lines. The new ruling is confused, ill thought out and practically impossible to police. A simple example; consider the thin concrete unpainted rumble strips around Castle Combe in several places. From inside the car you can feel it when you get a wheel on those but are we seriously saying that the marshalls around the track are going to be able to reliable spot and note a car putting a wheel on those strips? Or are we now saying those flat little unpainted strips are now kerbs?
I agree that the current rules are easier to police than the new rules. It's consistency that counts - there's a white line around all the tracks and it's simply a case of counting the number of wheels inside it to know if a car is off. Yes, it relies on somebody making a judgement call, but it's still easy to brief at the marshals' briefing in the morning. Can you imagine next year? As for whether the rumble strips are kerbs, I've no idea, but I can tell you for certain that there is zero ambiguity trackside if you've hit it or not.As far as MSV's grass budget goes, I don't think that's a good reason to abhor the changes. That MSV budget comes directly from our entry fees. As long as the rules are policed in a fair manner, it's not that important what those rules are. I believe that simplicity is the key to consistent policing - I've had to correct a few licenced officials this year and novice marshals are not going to know those rules backwards.
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