"Modern Classics" 40 minute race series
Discussion
Cheburator mk2 said:
I have only seen one reliable 944T race car and it was built by EMC 
It is all about the mapping, and in our case I think it was not as good as it could have been. As for the hardware, it is top notch. We will put a Cometic head gasket, re-visit the map and go from there. Though I still think that it is an inferior platform to the 928 - yet to see a UK race 944 in any form capable of beating Mark Chilton...
They beat all comers in the PCGB series (which is why they were banned, although there were le agility issues!!! Lol) and were competitive in Porsche Open. It is all about the mapping, and in our case I think it was not as good as it could have been. As for the hardware, it is top notch. We will put a Cometic head gasket, re-visit the map and go from there. Though I still think that it is an inferior platform to the 928 - yet to see a UK race 944 in any form capable of beating Mark Chilton...I can't afford one, but I'd have one if I could. And if Mark Chilton put the resources he has into a 944t rather than the 928 I really do believe that it would prove to be the better car. Sadly, I can't prove that opinion!!
eastlmark said:
Hazee said:
Should be at Mallory and Silverstone.... not donnington unfortunately
Im abit annoyed that the tin tops have infiltrated the Silverstone GP race .... I hope the grid is mostly modern and millennium.
+1 on that front, and they get in cheaper.....Im abit annoyed that the tin tops have infiltrated the Silverstone GP race .... I hope the grid is mostly modern and millennium.
How many tin tops are actually registered for NM and MC? Probably doesn't affect that many cars?
Edited by andy97 on Friday 24th July 09:13
Hammond1073 said:
How about this for the CSCC Modern Classics.
316 bhp Golf.
£7000 Ready to race
Hammond1073 said:
andy97 said:
Am I right in thinking that's a MK 3 Golf? Did they come with a turbo engine and 6 speed box as original? I'm not sure that they did. But if they didn't, then I'm afraid it's not eligible imho. If they did, then it may be eligible.
Failing that it can always run in the New Millenium seriesPistonSquizz said:
Tanuki said:
andy97 said:
I don't think engine transplants are allowed in any CSCC series except the Special Saloons and Modsports series.
This. Both 'New Millennium' and 'Modern Classics' regs are worded..."Original engine type to be retained"
"Original engine and gearbox type to be retained"
...repectively
Similarly, the same view could be used on a later model engine which is still a flat-four Subaru engine using a turbocharger and the Class C regulations now allow up to 2.5 litres.
It's a tricky one. One could end up knee deep in Engine/Gearbox/Model codes for each car.
We've certainly raided the "parts bin" to cherry pick a 5 speed gearbox/diff of the correct era. Have I knobbled us by being too pedantic? ;-)
In my view, If your car had a 5 speed box originally, and no 6 speed box in the range for that body shell, then it has to stay as a 5 speed. Yes, you can fit a competition gear kit or dog box or different final drive but it must use the same casing as the production 'box.
As for the engine, again in my view it has to have the same block and same head as the production model.
CSCC has only ever allowed one car in that did not have an engine original to type in its main stream series, as far as i know, and that was the Vectra which had the 3.2 V6 from the later model. I was the co-ordinator at the time, and there was supposed to be big interest from the Vectra Challenge guys at the time to run as their own class. I pushed to allow them in on the basis that they were (in the spirit of the regs". I was wrong, and as we know, only Neville Anderson turned up to race his Vectra and "Class V" never happened. I doubt the club will allow something similar again.
As you know, I am no longer the MC co-ordinator, but I have heard murmerings about BMWs with incorrect engines. They should not be allowed, indeed they are not allowed, but someone needs to make a complaint and get it investigated; its no good making allegations on here - make them known to the CSCC Office.
As for Mark's 928, I made it clear several years ago that the 928 GTS should only race in MC because that model is a post 1990 car, in my view, and should not be eligible for FC. Why it is still in FC, I have no idea.
As for Mark's 928, I made it clear several years ago that the 928 GTS should only race in MC because that model is a post 1990 car, in my view, and should not be eligible for FC. Why it is still in FC, I have no idea.
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 13th October 13:51
e36er said:
The CSCC MC regs state that the original engine and gearbox type must be retained, but internals are free.
By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
I will caveat my reply by emphasising that I am not to co-ordinator of MC anymore. I did not race in MC this year but have done previously and may do again next year.By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
Edited by e36er on Tuesday 13th October 14:12
IMHO A car cannot race with any old 2.5V6, it has to be the 2.5V6 from that model in the range
If a bodyshell never came with an S54 engine option, it cant race with one now.
CSCC have always had a view that there is no point in having rules that cant be policed, so no point in specifying internals when there is no intention to strip down; BUT, it is reasonable to expect competitors to comply with the (few) simple rules it does have and this means that the car has to have the engine type from the car in the range it is intended to represent.
As I said, the club (on my recommendation) made an exception for the 3.2V6 Vectra on the basis that we thought we were going to get a stand alone class of them racing with us. We did not and I was wrong.
Cheburator mk2 said:
But the rules are rules. What's there stopping me from building a 500+ 16v 944 Turbo - the head is sitting at home and I have done it before...
The rules! Porsche never made a 16v 944 Turbo.Whether they would let you build a 968 Turbo is another matter, but even that was an 8v ISTR
e36er said:
Technically speaking, a Z3 is an E36. The Z3M came with an S54, so that's that sorted!
No, because the e36 3 series saloon didn't.Anyone that is running an S54 in an e36 is breaking the rules. I just don't know whether anyone is or not? Thankfully not an issue I have to deal with anymore!
e36er said:
.... It'd be a shame if the series changed rules that would affect the eligibility of cars, as I suspect they'd go elsewhere which in turn have a negative effect on the series.
The rules have never been any different, and are based in the same philosophy as virtually all the CSCC series, and yet some still try to bend them, sigh!And some accuse people of bending them without offering any proof, just to hide the fact that they aren't fast enough. Lol!
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 13th October 19:13
Cheburator mk2 said:
And btw, Porsche did built a 16v 944T iteration - it was used in IMSA...
]
Still not eligible - it has to be a road car, and IIRC based on a car available in EU.]
The M3 GTR was specifically excluded because it was deemed to be a homologation special outside the spirit of the regs - they built just 3 x road cars to make it eligible for a U.S. race series.
Cheburator mk2 said:
Why would I want to do this? Forcing Tom to fit a S50 is not going to make my 928 competitive against it. Better suspension and seat time will. However, when somebody tries to move my car and Chilton's car into a different series, while allowing the M3 to run with an obvious breach of the most basic rules, then I get a bit peed off...
Alex, IF Tom, or anyone else is running a car that's against the rules then they should be asked to change the car to comply. Just the same as you should be asked to race your car in the correct series for it.I genuinely do not know if Tom, or anyone else is running an S54 engine in an E36, and even if you published the photo, I wouldn't know what I was looking at.
It's not fair on the other competitors in MC if a car is illegal, and it's not fair on the other competitors in FC that you are running a car that was only available post 1991 iwith a 5.4 litre engine in a series that's designed for pre 1990 cars.
CSCC doesn't have many rules but it's not unreasonable to expect competitors to comply with the ones they do have.
PistonSquizz said:
TroubledSoul said:
I'd like to enter MC either next year or the one after and I wouldn't want my M3 Evo up against someone running an S54 in theirs personally. It will be hard enough to become competitive without additional stuff like that.
Should have bought a scoob... ;-)BIG GT2 said:
Sounds like you should stick to racing instead of complaining that alex is in the wrong series if you can't see he's in a gt andy. It also says they will let later cars in at there discretion. There's too much politics in motor racing, I thought the cscc escaped all this. I Can't believe you have complained that I should race in mc then asked me for any spare tickets at Donington lol
Mark, i have sent you my response by PM.To be clear, it wasn't me that complained about yours and Alex's car, although I did discuss the eligibility of your car with you 3 x years ago. Alex raised the subject here.
I am very happy that Alex's car is a GT.
richy w said:
As I may enter FC next year couple of questions, why is someone running an E21 BMW with an engine bigger than 2300, which was max in production, and why a Mazda MX5 with a turbo, never produced by Mazda ???
An original engine type can be bored and/ or stroked.The MK1 MX5 turbo was produced by BBR and officially sanctioned by Mazda, and available through Mazda dealers, with a Mazda warranty.
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