No wheels off...
Discussion
Kinkell said:
How about just keeping it on the track instead of the grass. I turf lawns for a living @ £ 10 per metre which is not the limiting factor in this instance. The stewards need do be consistent in their refereeing and that is the main and recurring cause for concern.
I've actually got no real problem with a change of rules regards track limits. I don't agree with it, think it's daft and with no benefit. But it's just a rule. We can all drive to it.What I really do have a problem with is some t
t circuit owner who thinks that racing life is made better by sensors and cameras.At the risk of getting told off, JP is a complete and utter tosser. Cameras and sensors have no place on his w
ky little circuits. WTF is he thinking?If this is the future of British circuit racing then I hope attendance goes down, JP goes out of business and we can get back to a sensible regime.
I think it's Donington, Combe, Pembrey, Angelsey and all the other non-MSV circuits from here on in.
Bert
If you are worried about what happened years ago Terence, get real. We are not years ago we are now.
We had some perfectly good rules last year and where I raced, those rules were upheld properly and it worked well.
Now we have some dafter rules and some ridiculous enforcement techniques.
It's all at the whim of one man. That can't be right.
Bert
We had some perfectly good rules last year and where I raced, those rules were upheld properly and it worked well.
Now we have some dafter rules and some ridiculous enforcement techniques.
It's all at the whim of one man. That can't be right.
Bert
Maxx said:
No, let's kick this new rule out and continue with the widespread use of 'sausage kerbs' and tyre bails on apexes. Much better to smash your car up and maybe take out the following car than suffer the indignity of being shown a driving standards flag!
Well more bollix then. We had good rules last year that got enforced. That's being suckered in to a daft school of thought. Saying a bad thing is ok because it's slightly better than another bad thing cannot be right.Edited by Maxx on Tuesday 1st April 09:28
In terms of the new rules, I thought the outcome on Sunday at Brands proved the point. As a spectator, 5 second in-race penalties are really s
te in sprint races. It's unenjoyable to be trying to add 5 seconds to a car to know where it is really running. Not an improvement at all. So it is detrimental to live viewing. I hope the benefit it brings JP is worth it.Bert
Maxx said:
Really!
If you get a copy of all of JP's pics from the weekend you will see that and lots more. Do you know that those pics above were from last year? Do you know how the rules were enforced in those cases? No. Speaking from what I do know is that in the Radicals, last year's track limits rules were enforced. It all worked well.Don't be suckered into the new JP world.
Bert
n3il123 said:
FFS it's a race track, you know the grey bendy bit of tarmac, where you are supposed to race?
If you all stick within it then this wouldn't even be a problem, the guys that aren't abiding by the rules are the ones taking the piss.
If you want to go on the grass and tarmac go do some rallycross?
P.s. I don't get what the problem is with JP wanting to take care of his (expensive) investments because some guys/ girls can't keep on the grey stuff and abide by the rules.
So that's just uninformed crap. We had perfectly good rules last year. The same as everyone else. Now we have JPs wIf you all stick within it then this wouldn't even be a problem, the guys that aren't abiding by the rules are the ones taking the piss.
If you want to go on the grass and tarmac go do some rallycross?
P.s. I don't get what the problem is with JP wanting to take care of his (expensive) investments because some guys/ girls can't keep on the grey stuff and abide by the rules.
ky rules and cameras (FFS) to enforce them. Who benefits? Tell me that n3il123. Go on tell me the beneficiaries. BertI'm quite enjoying arguing about it as an academic exercise. It doesn't affect me as I am such a good driver - oh hold on...
I'd love to understand how it improves driving standards and if it does who benefits from those improvements?
I'd argue it doesn't actually improve standards, it just changes the rules. There is no difference in the driving standard needed with the new rules against the old rules as far as I can see.
It seems to have been widely publicised that for JP, grass is the issue. Is there any published info about how the new rules raise the standard?
So I'm entrenched in my view. An unnecessary new rule that has very limited benefit.
The cameras are just daft. It's just more inconsistent rule enforcement. I'd rather have consistent human driven enforcement even if it's error prone. Otherwise it's just like the M25 sprint between the speed cameras. I don't think it adds to the sport.
Bert
I'd love to understand how it improves driving standards and if it does who benefits from those improvements?
I'd argue it doesn't actually improve standards, it just changes the rules. There is no difference in the driving standard needed with the new rules against the old rules as far as I can see.
It seems to have been widely publicised that for JP, grass is the issue. Is there any published info about how the new rules raise the standard?
So I'm entrenched in my view. An unnecessary new rule that has very limited benefit.
The cameras are just daft. It's just more inconsistent rule enforcement. I'd rather have consistent human driven enforcement even if it's error prone. Otherwise it's just like the M25 sprint between the speed cameras. I don't think it adds to the sport.
Bert
mad4amanda said:
Bert, surely you can see that the rule before allowed 2 wheels to be off the track and kerbs and the current rule does not so therefore it limits the damage caused even more which results in a safer circuit for all ?
The one thing we do agree on is that enforcement is necessary and had the previous rule been better enforced maybe we would not have needed the new ruling to limit damage.
Yes indeed I can see the physical effect of the change. I'm not that sympathetic to the argument as you can tell. That has however been the rule for a really really long time and circuits seemed to have happily survived. But that means the new rule is exactly about JPs grass, not driving standards. I assume you must be the man who has to mend the edges at MSV circuits The one thing we do agree on is that enforcement is necessary and had the previous rule been better enforced maybe we would not have needed the new ruling to limit damage.
If it's about driving standards, how does changing the definition of the edge help?
Bert
Hi Dave, yes I do listen and you made your points about rider safety earlier on. They are good points and I have no direct experience on a bike. If that was JPs reasoning that's good!
In terms of my view, you have mis-understood what I think. I am firmly in favour of the rules being enforced and drivers intending to drive to them. You will have noticed me harping on about my direct experience in Radicals where last year there was a big focus on track limits. I think that worked well. Even I got a warning flag. Imagine that!
My argument is that that is what was needed. I might even have supported pressure pads and cameras, although I don't actually think that's sensible (as I have said before).
It's a common modern thought failure that says that when rules are not enforced the solution is to make the rules stricter. Too much drink-driving? Make the limit lower! Daft or what?
Bert
In terms of my view, you have mis-understood what I think. I am firmly in favour of the rules being enforced and drivers intending to drive to them. You will have noticed me harping on about my direct experience in Radicals where last year there was a big focus on track limits. I think that worked well. Even I got a warning flag. Imagine that!
My argument is that that is what was needed. I might even have supported pressure pads and cameras, although I don't actually think that's sensible (as I have said before).
It's a common modern thought failure that says that when rules are not enforced the solution is to make the rules stricter. Too much drink-driving? Make the limit lower! Daft or what?
Bert
Maxx said:
Jeez, if you are using the Runoff at Copse you've got more to worry about than track limits ... 
Maxx
Testing this time last year at Silverstone with some clio cup cars. They were obviously having a competition to get fastest lap time regardless of the actual track! So the racing line at copse for them included the runoff tarmac the other side of the green bit at copse. They were also annoyingly cutting the corner at the entry to Luffield and putting a lot of muddy earth on the circuit.Maxx
I blame the circuit where was the enforcement of the rules?
Bert
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