who brought the red GTR sold by the factory?

[Stig]

LuckyP said:

kylemrushall said:

Im have no doubt you know what you are talking about but....

Pete's wheels imo are not a plus point so using that as an example makes it all in the eye of the beholder.

The beauty of the kit car industry is you can make your own mark on your car, i would rather and im sure many others would buy something a little different rather than a factory clone. This is backed up by many people purchasing parts, engines from people like Jeff in the States??

I have nothing against the factory in fact quite the opposite i applaud them for developing such a great car but i dont like/understand the fact that they do not like people to move away from their specs. The development carried out by a lot of pioneer builders could be incorporated in future factory products/cars????

I don't fink he gets it.

Kyle or me?

[LuckyP]

Stig said:

LuckyP said:

kylemrushall said:

Im have no doubt you know what you are talking about but....

Pete's wheels imo are not a plus point so using that as an example makes it all in the eye of the beholder.

The beauty of the kit car industry is you can make your own mark on your car, i would rather and im sure many others would buy something a little different rather than a factory clone. This is backed up by many people purchasing parts, engines from people like Jeff in the States??

I have nothing against the factory in fact quite the opposite i applaud them for developing such a great car but i dont like/understand the fact that they do not like people to move away from their specs. The development carried out by a lot of pioneer builders could be incorporated in future factory products/cars????

I don't fink he gets it.

Kyle or me?

No, not you, Kyle.

You know how hard brands work to protect the std specification to maintain a solid Brand position to keep RVs as high as possible. Any dilution factory std specification (and I'm talking industry here) tends to affect the future value, and although we are talking different scales, I understand why Ultima would be keen to keep vehicle to their original specifications.

People are free to chose, and as proven, other engine supplier enjoy perfectly good reliability, but if I was a buyer of an Ultima, I'd call the Factory, see what they recommend and then hunt for that spec. It'd be a good starting point for a good Factory relationship if nothing else.

Pete

[kylemrushall]

Some people develop cars because they enjoy it, so to some extent you boys dont get it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know there are people out there looking at this disagreeing with you two but for whatever reasons they dont say anything (you know who you are)

Building cars and developing/improving them is my love/hobby so if in x years it isnt worth the same as a factory clone because the fag lighter is different i dont really give a toss!! Some people as i have said will look for a car that is a bit different so who knows what we will get for them.

Just because i dont agree with you 2 doesnt mean i dont get it, i understand your points but because i think differently it doesnt make me stupid.

[Wilder]

kylemrushall said:

Some people develop cars because they enjoy it, so to some extent you boys dont get it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know there are people out there looking at this disagreeing with you two but for whatever reasons they dont say anything (you know who you are)

Building cars and developing/improving them is my love/hobby so if in x years it isnt worth the same as a factory clone because the fag lighter is different i dont really give a toss!! Some people as i have said will look for a car that is a bit different so who knows what we will get for them.

Just because i dont agree with you 2 doesnt mean i dont get it, i understand your points but because i think differently it doesnt make me stupid.

What he said
Paying well over the odds for no practical improvement makes no sense to me either.

[LuckyP]

kylemrushall said:

Some people develop cars because they enjoy it, so to some extent you boys dont get it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know there are people out there looking at this disagreeing with you two but for whatever reasons they dont say anything (you know who you are)

Building cars and developing/improving them is my love/hobby so if in x years it isnt worth the same as a factory clone because the fag lighter is different i dont really give a toss!! Some people as i have said will look for a car that is a bit different so who knows what we will get for them.

Just because i dont agree with you 2 doesnt mean i dont get it, i understand your points but because i think differently it doesnt make me stupid.

That's what I like about this forum, over lots of others. We can have a debate, but it doesn't get silly.

Of course we all 'get it' but we are getting it from different angles!!
(apart from the Can-Am girls; who don't care what angle they get it from )

In the long run there is no truer valuer than the market. We'll see.

Lucky

[V8OWNER]

kylemrushall said:

Building cars and developing/improving them is my love/hobby so if in x years it isnt worth the same as a factory clone because the fag lighter is different i dont really give a toss!! Some people as i have said will look for a car that is a bit different so who knows what we will get for them.

ditto..

now what this about needing different alloys for rj suspension?!

[CanAm Dave]

LuckyP said:

Stig said:

LuckyP said:

kylemrushall said:

Im have no doubt you know what you are talking about but....

Pete's wheels imo are not a plus point so using that as an example makes it all in the eye of the beholder.

The beauty of the kit car industry is you can make your own mark on your car, i would rather and im sure many others would buy something a little different rather than a factory clone. This is backed up by many people purchasing parts, engines from people like Jeff in the States??

I have nothing against the factory in fact quite the opposite i applaud them for developing such a great car but i dont like/understand the fact that they do not like people to move away from their specs. The development carried out by a lot of pioneer builders could be incorporated in future factory products/cars????

I don't fink he gets it.

Kyle or me?

No, not you, Kyle.

You know how hard brands work to protect the std specification to maintain a solid Brand position to keep RVs as high as possible. Any dilution factory std specification (and I'm talking industry here) tends to affect the future value, and although we are talking different scales, I understand why Ultima would be keen to keep vehicle to their original specifications.

People are free to chose, and as proven, other engine supplier enjoy perfectly good reliability, but if I was a buyer of an Ultima, I'd call the Factory, see what they recommend and then hunt for that spec. It'd be a good starting point for a good Factory relationship if nothing else.

Pete

We all get this point, me and my best mate Kyle included!

I would not want a Factory standard car and indeed do not have one! I would be happy to buy and non-standard car but I can understand those with less engineering knowledge that do. When you read the history of Ultima and see Ted fitting non-standard engines and making major body mods it makes me happy because to me this is what it is all about. As Kyle has said maybe it will alter the value of the car but I don't and will never care about that! Some might and that's fine!
I applaude the Factory in all that they do and when I visit from time to time Richard always enquires as to how things are going with my car.
I just love to see things done differently! When things are always the same they become dull. I love what Lucky did to his interior! I've just extended being different to my engine bay! I love anything that is non-standard! I don't think people should be frightned off buying non-standard cars if thats what they want to buy.
We all love what Jeff is doing with the LS7 but should a car be worth any less because it's not AS?

Regards Dave

[SimonMaidenhead]

LuckyP said:

kylemrushall said:

Some people develop cars because they enjoy it, so to some extent you boys dont get it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know there are people out there looking at this disagreeing with you two but for whatever reasons they dont say anything (you know who you are)

Building cars and developing/improving them is my love/hobby so if in x years it isnt worth the same as a factory clone because the fag lighter is different i dont really give a toss!! Some people as i have said will look for a car that is a bit different so who knows what we will get for them.

Just because i dont agree with you 2 doesnt mean i dont get it, i understand your points but because i think differently it doesnt make me stupid.

That's what I like about this forum, over lots of others. We can have a debate, but it doesn't get silly.

Of course we all 'get it' but we are getting it from different angles!!
(apart from the Can-Am girls; who don't care what angle they get it from )

In the long run there is no truer valuer than the market. We'll see.

Lucky

Hey, I resent that comment, come over here and say that big boy

[Stig]

I think we're talking at cross purposes here and I fully appreciate that it's different strokes for different folks. This isn't about whether cars should or shouldn't be 'standard' spec. and whether they're better (or worse) for it - it's about the effect on resale in the eyes of the average punter.

You do of course realise that both of my cars were not factory standard spec. - far from it in fact! However - they both had the 'right bits' from a re-sale point of view, which is why they both sold quickly (in Ultima re-sale terms at least).

We'd all like to think that we'll keep the cars forever, but the reality is (unfortunately) usually quite different and for some (I'd venture the majority in fact) RVs are fairly important.

[Captain Slog]

Stig said:

You have to remember that the factory put their name to the product (which they've spent many years developing / testing / evolving) - as soon as people deviate from it (with for arguments sake - dire results) that reflects directly on them by association.

Otherwise you're not producing a product as such, just a bunch of parts that people can build into a car with no control over how good/terrible the result.

In that case I would have thought that the easiest way for the factory to maintain uniformity and protect their image is to sell the car as a package along with the engine in the first place. To supply it in component form but with an empty engine bay after the build is just asking for deviation and improvisation in my opinion.

[LuckyP]

SimonMaidenhead said:

Hey, I resent that comment, come over here and say that big boy

Eeekk!! Run for your lives!!!!!

Edited by LuckyP on Tuesday 26th February 16:54

[Stig]

kylemrushall said:

Just because i dont agree with you 2 doesnt mean i dont get it, i understand your points but because i think differently it doesnt make me stupid.

Kyle - I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise, nor did I imply you were stupid for thinking the way you do.

As I said, the point of the discussion was whether modifying the cars from a recognisable specification (ie. the factory's) affects the re-sale value and simply put - it does.

That doesn't mean it should stop anyone from trying something different to the factory spec. But if you do, you can't reasonably expect the factory to provide support for the modifications - which is precisely why prospective buyers (generally speaking) will shy away from such cars.

As you say, for those who are more mechanically minded/skilled (or knows/pays someone who is) this doesn't factor as much into the decision, but it's still a consideration for the prospective Ultima buyer and as such, becomes a bargaining point when it comes to the price.

[Steve_D]

There was a genuine question missed in all the Factory Spec whohar.

I'm not sure this car is the factory 'test bed'(My definition) featured in the brochure Guy posted.

The Test Bed IIRC had rose joints and longer swing arms (amongst other changes) which is the reason the rims had a different offset to keep the tyre inside the body.
A standard car will use the same rims for rubber bush or rose joints.

Steve

[Stig]

Captain Slog said:

Stig said:

You have to remember that the factory put their name to the product (which they've spent many years developing / testing / evolving) - as soon as people deviate from it (with for arguments sake - dire results) that reflects directly on them by association.

Otherwise you're not producing a product as such, just a bunch of parts that people can build into a car with no control over how good/terrible the result.

In that case I would have thought that the easiest way for the factory to maintain uniformity and protect their image is to sell the car as a package along with the engine in the first place. To supply it in component form but with an empty engine bay after the build is just asking for deviation and improvisation in my opinion.

'tis true. However Ted's original concept (and it's true today) was to supply a complete turnkey solution - a 'Tamiya Kit' if you will.

That said, they obviously recognise that people may want to plough their own furrow - but that's for the builder to decide and caveat emptor applies.

[Graham-P]

I think you have all missed the point, for me this is the most important bit of the post......

Robert Newall said:

......I phoned The Ultima factory for any information on the car. When I spoke to Ultima (The person I spoke to at Ultima was /removed/, by the way, If you feel the need to check) they said the ad had been misrepresented and then advised me to buy another car.........

The fact is that 'someone', an 'expert' maybe, at the factory could, and in this case did, have an influence on the out come of a private sale, now whether it was said without any investigation on the misrepresentation or not I can't obviously comment on but lets take a purely hypothetical example:
What if you wanted to sell your car Luckyp and your buyer phones the factory to enquire about it......and the 'expert' says, yes the build is OK, but it's been heavily tracked, had three engine rebuilds, has non standard wheels and a non standard interior.................etc etc.............and that you have already told the buyer this, but coming from an 'expert' source, pulls out of the deal......... how p##sed off would you be....not saying that it would ever happen as it purely hypothetical, and I only say yours Lucky as you have documented your exploits on here so it's well known.

Oh yeah ... only CanAm owners can make comments like that about CanAm owners..........and did you notice that I never once mentioned my gearbox....(DOH!!!!)

[Wilder]

deadscoob said:

But why would it be worth £2,000 more with an AS engine?

As above, Ameri Spd is not under any circumstances worth 2K over another Chevy build - especially if its similar spec, and by a competent builder -sorry but no way.

[TuxMan]

holy crap i've read this thread twice and i still don,t know what to say !!! building a ultima is a personal thing we all like to think that in our own way we have built a special car, do the changes that we make over factory spec de-value the car ??? of course not as builders we do the changes because we feel they make the car better who is to say that the changes make the car worse ??? in fact there are some mods that imo make the car worth more just because those changes do not recieve factory support should make no difference to the asking price that should depend on the market and quality of the car .

Its dissapointing that Gritbox did not recieve a bit more support from the factory to help him sort out the issues with the engine but the fact that its not a AS should not put off or de-value the car more importantly the way the engine runs should be paramount !!!

The greater concern to me is the experts can have a big influence over buyers when unless they have built the car themselves they are not in a position to offer a opinium other than to say yes he bought all the bits less the engine gearbox etc .

I too have resisted the temptation to mention Grahams very expensive Gearbox and the factory support with that !!!!

Edited by TuxMan on Tuesday 26th February 18:24

[LuckyP]

Graham-P said:

...What if you wanted to sell your car Luckyp and your buyer phones the factory to enquire about it......and the 'expert' says, yes the build is OK, but it's been heavily tracked, had three engine rebuilds, has non standard wheels and a non standard interior.................etc etc.............and that you have already told the buyer this, but coming from an 'expert' source, pulls out of the deal......... how p##sed off would you be...

As you ask. As long as there were no untruths told, then I would welcome the opinion of the 'expert' from the home of the experts. So not pished off at all.

The analogy of selling a house with 'personalised touches' springs to mind here, doesn't it? The market says if you paint it magnolia and keep the bathroom suites white, you'll appeal to a wider audience and make best price.

Pete
(Avocado suites x 2, lemon x 1 and primrose x1 )

[actuary]

An actuary's view ....

An interesting thread this one, and I agree several comments that it is good to see healthy debate without any silliness.

At the end of the day, the value of any person's car will be dictated by what the seller and buyer agree on at the time. As an actuary, I know several colleagues who work in general insurance and these guys have to work out whether your insurance value is sensible/ credible. So how do they do that when we "experts" can't agree ?

As an example, if I totalled my GTR tomorrow the first port of call would be to ask the Factory what would be a replacement cost. Given my car is factory spec'd 100%, this is a fair figure. Stig is right that the Factory valuation would usually be seen as an experts view of a car like mine, even more so if the Factory built it themselves. Actuaries and insurers are not car experts, but we make judgements based on available facts. For a car built with Ultima's parts I see no reason why this figure would be disputed.

For a non standard car, more questions would be asked but that does not mean that a lower figure would be given. If the owner could show why their car was worth the same as a Factory spec car, or more (e.g. Wayne) then there is no reason why the insurer would not pay more. But it is always best to get a value agreed in advance of any crash (!!) and insurers all have their own way of going about this (Wayne, you have yours on agreed value no doubt ?). Check your policy documents !!

All of this applies equally to a sale valuation. Most people with no car or ultima knowledge would play it safe and go for a standard car (or Factory Built) but those in the know may pay more for something special (e.g. Can Am Daves !). Given the numbers involved are big (£ x0,000s), people generally will not want to take risks and the Factory built car will demand a (significant) risk premium, then the factory spec'd cars, then the did-my-own-thing cars. But these are just starting points.

Am sure Factory also provide some sort of warranty which itself is worth a hell of a lot to someone who doesn't know how to fix them.

Tony.

[gritbox]

I imagine the factory had a bit of a hard time over this, I was ringing them, the buyer was ringing them. I guess they had to take a positive stance and tell both of us what they percieved to be right. They knew the engine wasnt AS and told the buyer that, not untrue. At the end of the day I am never going to know what was said, so no point dwelling on it.